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  #1641  
Old 12-06-2020, 01:18 PM
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123pugsy 123pugsy is offline
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This should be cake for you to figure out. You always find a way.
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my project:
http://www.allmetalshaping.com/showthread.php?t=154
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  #1642  
Old 12-06-2020, 09:30 PM
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Jack 1957 Jack 1957 is offline
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First, thanks for the input on potential solutions posted and in PMs.There are various methods that OEMs have employed to make this window operate. Some won't work, some would but are complex and would require eliminating the CTS regulator, which I can't do. What it comes down to is Occam's Razor; the simplest solution is usually the right one.
I started today by tightening everything up. As I stated in my last post, I set this window system up when everything was being roughed in and measurements were still kind of loose. As I started the finish work, things began to come into their final finished size and shape. When I returned to working on the windows, the template wouldn't work so in frustration I just thought I'd have to use vent windows and have the vertical run channel solve the problem.

Last night I realized that I had never fine tuned the original door posts and window template. This morning I hit it in attack mode. (Nobody gets out alive until this problem is solved). Now that the doors are hung and properly aligned, I mounted the door post/run channel and made a new and more accurate template for the side glass.
Holding my breath and slipping the template into the front run channel I slid the template downward until the top of the template was down to the belt molding, then a couple inches below the belt molding! SUCCESS! I still have to make and mount the rear run channel and regulator assembly, but at least now I know that it will work.
I put a spring clamp on the template to hold it in the up position, stood back and took a look and couldn't help smiling. Welcome back single side glass. Soooo much cleaner looking, and I'm back on track with the renderings.
I need to set the roof back on the car so I can check the seal along the upper edge of the glass. There's a little wiggle room on that, so I'm not too concerned about it. I just need to see if I have the doorposts mounted at the right height.

The picture below is where I'm at right now. The similar picture in the previous post is where I was yesterday. The difference is, this version works.


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Last edited by Jack 1957; 12-06-2020 at 09:36 PM.
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  #1643  
Old 12-06-2020, 09:58 PM
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Jack 1957 Jack 1957 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Hamilton View Post
Jack
I agree with you the wing vents should be eliminated!

First glance says to me that the glass will need to rotate in order to go down.
The back will need to drop first, to rotate the glass.
No ideas as to how to make that happen.
Hope you can work it out.
Steve

There is a method that would do that. A window regulator that has been used since the 50's. Best way I can describe the action would be to imagine holding a pair of scissors pointed end up. Open the scissors and cut half of one blade off. As you open and close the scissors the tip of the long blade travels further than the tip of the short blade even tough both blades are opening at the same rate. BUT, at the full open position, both blade tips are ate the same level. To adjust what level you want in the open at closed position, just rotate the scissors from the 12 o'clock position to 1 o'clock or 2 o'clock, etc..
For my application, I can't remove the original regulator. The CTS was a hardtop. No frames around the door glass. There is a processor built into the regulator motor that, when you activate the door handle to get in, the processor drops the window about 1 inch so the window clears the roof when the door opens. The window stays in that position until the door is closed, then pops back up to full closed position resting on the weather seals.
Thanks for the input anyways but I think I've got a handle on this now.
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Last edited by Jack 1957; 12-06-2020 at 10:02 PM.
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  #1644  
Old 12-10-2020, 11:52 PM
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Jack 1957 Jack 1957 is offline
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Back to the side glass. I made a template and four blanks for a pair of clamp style rear track bracket. These will go on the bottom edge of the glass near the back and eliminate the need for a run channel back there. One on each window. I have enough room to roll the windows down but not enough room to use a run channel at the back edge of the glass. These will mount about 3" forward of the back edge.



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Next, I tipped the flanges on all four parts and bent a step into two of them. This will allow the bracket to set flush on the inboard side. One flat bracket and one stepped bracket per window. I allowed clearance for one layer of double sided tape. There will actually be two layers, one on each half, (.020" each layer) but I want this to apply some pressure when it's tightened down.


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I applied a coat of tape primer to the areas that will get double sided tape. As long as the clamping pressure remains , the bond on this tape is almost impossible to break in shear. The foam itself will fail before the adhesive. I made the contact area round for a reason. There will be pressure in various directions during use trying to bent, twist, push, pull, etc. Any bracket with corners on it would have focal points at those corners and increase the chances of cracking the glass. Also the foam tape helps as a shock absorber to help avoid the same potential problem.


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I will be using a slotted track and skid pad for this. I ordered a piece of 1" x 1/2" rectangular tube. When it gets here I'll cut a slot down the full length on the 1" side. These nylon skid pads will be attached to the bottom of the brackets and will slide up and down inside the slotted track with the movement of the window. I am using skid pads rather than nylon wheels because the nylon wheels used in window regulator tracks are only designed to take load in one direction. The direction of rotation. The wheels are purposely mounted loosely to avoid freezing up over time. In this application I need fairly tight control in all directions.

What I've done to tighten this action up is the use of skid pads rather than wheels and the way they are mounted. The pads will be bolted to the window brackets with about 1/2" clearance from pad to bracket. I have trimmed the length of a couple small springs that will go on the bolt holding this all together. The spring will allow 1/4" of movement until it fully compresses and binds.

This gives me a tolerance when I mount the regulator, front run channel and rear track of 1/4". If I can maintain that during installation there should be no binding or cracking the glass no matter if the window is up or down or anywhere in between.
This is how the bracket will be positioned on the glass. I have to mock up the regulator and make sure the glass clamps on it don't interfere with these brackets. That will probably be my next challenge.


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I took a break from the windows and started to finish off the engine closure panels. I wet sanded with 600# and used a high build pour on Epoxy clear. I don't want to spray in the garage anymore if I can avoid it. You have to make sure the part is level by shimming as necessary. You could just let it drip off the sides and it would still be thick and deep, but I just used some masking tape along the edges to keep the mess down. This is about 1/8" thick but it looks a mile deep. High clarity, nice shine, and deep. One down, one to go. I'll do the other one in a day or two.


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Last edited by Jack 1957; 12-11-2020 at 12:17 AM.
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  #1645  
Old 12-13-2020, 05:46 PM
Hotflint Hotflint is offline
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I spent a few days following this thread. I was absolutely hooked from page 1. Thank you for breaking everything down as well as you did. I have learned a lot and I truly appreciate it.
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  #1646  
Old 12-14-2020, 11:21 AM
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Congratulations on the window, I feel you will be so much less distracted now that it doesn't torment you out of the corner of your minds eye.
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  #1647  
Old 12-20-2020, 12:31 AM
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Jack 1957 Jack 1957 is offline
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I had a friend stop over and help me put the roof back on the car so I could get an accurate fit for the window template (Thanks Dave). I was able to use the CTS upper window seals after being modified to fit the 49 roof. I did all that when I was building the roof frame.
So, with the roof on and the seals installed I started getting the door posts and front run channels in place. The posts were made long ago, when I was still in the rough-in phase. The shape was correct but there was no adjustment other than shimming where they bolt to the inner door frame. I cleaned that up a bit by tacking the posts in where I needed them, then cut holes in the door frame where the mounting points were and welded in new pieces of sheet metal that were in the exact location side to side and fore and aft. The posts now bolt in exactly where they belong without shimming. They can be shimmed later if needed but it wouldn't take much.
Next, I clamped the run channels to the posts and adjusted them until they came up to the upper seal, passed between the wipers at the belt line, and were still able to clear the inside of the door skin. When it was right, I bolted the run channels to the posts and called it. Sounds easy, right? That was three days' work! Patience and persistence. Any time I started getting aggravated, I just thought about how much I hated those vent windows. Beside being ugly, to me they represented failure... Defeat. So just cool off and find the solution.



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Below is a mock up of the template, regulator, and rear track. Lots of junk in there, but if it works it works. So, I plugged this mess into the door harness and ran the window through a couple cycles. Ehh. The motor seemed to be straining. It wasn't lifting any weight, no resistance from run channels, battery is fully charged. What's up? I disconnected the regulator from the template and cycled it again. It ran OK. I had thought that maybe since I had straightened these CTS regulator tracks I might have put more tension on the cable that runs this whole show, but the outer cable housing is spring loaded to cover that particular problem. I think what was wrong was that I had too many sharp bends in the cables and it was creating too much drag on the inner cable.
I took off the rear guide and moved the tracks as far apart as possible and the system operated properly.

What this means is that I won't be able to use a rear guide track. I might not have to though. I was looking at the way the clamps are hung on the

regulator tracks and they seem to act as a limit that will keep the glass from moving to the rear and coming out of the run channel up front.

In the two pictures below, you can see how moving the rear regulator track back toward the end of the glass makes the bends in the cables far less severe. If this works without the guide track, all is good. If not, I might have to mount the guide track in between the two regulator tracks, but it's getting pretty busy in there. Stay tuned.


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Last edited by Jack 1957; 12-20-2020 at 01:09 AM.
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  #1648  
Old 12-21-2020, 09:55 PM
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Jack 1957 Jack 1957 is offline
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I'm going to show in detail how I made the door post/run channel moldings since this seems to intimidate some newbees. There's not much difference between this and other sheet metal work other than the fact that everything you do or don't do will be seen by all... and since it's highly reflective it's going to magnify every flaw like the mirror in the Hubble telescope... Other than that, what's the problem, right? I have a lot of pictures so I'll have to do this in three separate posts

The original Cadillac moldings were not ornate. They didn't have any deep complex shapes or steps. They were all pretty basic. Window trim, in cross section was just a parabolic curve at the edge by the glass and a 90 degree bend where it mounts to the body. When I made the side trim and rear bumper, I took out some of the bulbous look and replaced with a sleeker flat, straight look. I'm doing the same here.
I'm making both right and left pieces at the same time but I am showing only the pictures of the right side to avoid confusion.
The mission is to make a molding that will conceal the difference in shapes of the door posts and the run channels. The posts have a curve, mostly in the upper half, to match the back edge of the windshield and A pillar. The run channel is straight, to accommodate flat side glass.
I started with a template then cut a piece of scrap 22ga steel to make a test run. I used a mini brake to put the 90 degree bend in along the leading edge of the door post. Next I used the bead roller to make a soft bend about 15 degrees at the top and fading out as it traveled downward. I didn't like the results. It was difficult to gradually release pressure as I was tracking. The bend was adequate but I was not tracking straight because I was messing with the pressure. If it looks wobbly on steel, it will look horrible on polished stainless. I'll have to find a better way. I went ahead and ran it through the shrinker to see if I could get what I wanted. That part I can do on the stainless parts.


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I cut the blanks from 24ga 430 stainless #8 mirror, then did the 90 degree bend along the leading edge in the mini brake. These brakes are kind of clumsy in that the upper clamp is a separate bar that is clamped to the frame with C clamps or vice grips, but it gets the job done.

I made the 90 degree bend for the leading edge then scribed a line on the back side that's 1" from the first bend to clear the 1" square tube of the door post.




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When I made the test piece I used the bead roller for this next bend but didn't like the results. I'm going to try a different way on the mini brake. I laid the trim piece face down along the scribe line and taped a piece of 3/8" round stock directly over the scribe line to keep it from moving.


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Then I used some scrap metal to hold up the clamp bar at the same height as the round stock.


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Last edited by Jack 1957; 12-21-2020 at 10:49 PM.
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  #1649  
Old 12-21-2020, 10:18 PM
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I laid the clamping bar over the whole mess and used C clamps to hold everything down. Notice that the C clamp on the left is directly over the work piece and the one on the right is all the way over at the far edge of the brake. Far beyond the length of the work piece. The idea is that since the brake is so flimsy, the clamp bar will flex while bending and gradually deliver less of a bend as it gets further from the clamp on the left holding the top of the molding.



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This is where the post and run channel will be trimmed. Also, the black lines are where the edges will be trimmed of after I'm done with the shrinker. I should be able to trim off most of the jaw marks.


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My hieroglyphics show where I need to shrink and how much. Big V's = a lot of bend, smaller and smaller = less and less bend. Hey, It only needs to make sense to me.



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First round through the shrinker and as expected, the edge raised upwhere the shrinking was done. Notice most of the jaw marks are in the extra material that will be trimmed off.


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Arrows show extra material and how the shrinking pulled the edge away from the run channel. Not to worry, there's a cure for that.



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Set a Goal So Big That You Can't Achieve It Until You Grow Into The Person That Can.

Last edited by Jack 1957; 12-21-2020 at 10:45 PM.
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  #1650  
Old 12-21-2020, 10:37 PM
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I shimmed the flattest anvil on my e wheel and edge wheeled the raised area until I got it to lay flat along the run channel. By the time I got it to lay down, the edge was sharper than a Ginsu knife.



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I trimmed the extra material off the edges, then cut a block out of a piece of hardwood. I sanded one end smooth and flat, and the other end with a large radius. This is my stump. I used a spoon to gradually flatten out the puckers from the shrinking process. It takes time, but it's not too bad. Stainless is tough but it's pretty thin so it moved without too much resistance.


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I use a sanding block and some 320# to find highs and lows. Nope, keep bumping.



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I eventually got them smoothed out and polished. Same sanding/polishing routine as described when doing the rear bumper.

There's still some work to do. I made some caps for the top of these moldings and they need to be welded on. I'll get them over to the TIG guy and see what he can do. When I get them back I don't know if I will have to re shape these or not. Stainless moves around a lot when heated. I might have to shrink and polish a little again.


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