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  #11  
Old 06-19-2020, 12:54 PM
cliffrod cliffrod is offline
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Corey, if you haven't seen my beginners project thread covering my cowl plenum breather build, it might have some details to help you with your project. It's different but similar in terms of general shapes.

http://www.allmetalshaping.com/showthread.php?t=18299

One thing I learned about maintaining a tight fit to the hammerform when using a male shape hammerform (metal being formed over the form, not into a hollow female area) was significant. Turning a slight reverse in the metal -think folding the outward edge into a slight flange where it will first start being formed over the hammerform- will help you stretch the metal somewhat over the form. A much tighter fit will be established and maintained while you're corking the material over the hammerform.

How tall is the back of your scoop? Depending upon material used, I would consider making it from a single piece like either the top or bottom half of my breather. If so, any hammerform could be pretty simple with only the rear portion needed to be solid enough to support the hammer work. The sides could be formed/bent into position as the rear shape is developed. I would add the top & middle detail last. If it didn't work, I would do it different on the second attempt...

You could make a complete hammerform with all the detail. It's extra work. I like making the shape like that as practice & prep. It often helps me solve the project details before I start.

Can't offer any advice about bead rolling. I've never used one. To initiate a bend or line, it's simple to use the English Wheel to push up/down as needed against the square edge of the upper wheel or flat lower anvil. Go slow to follow the line and it works well.

I also create and define detail over an appropriate shaped tool (convenient or purpose made) held by hand or in the vise. Using a slapper (wood or metal) works better for me than a rubber mallet. I have a hard plastic mallet that I use some, but find better results for many things using my homemade slappers. I'm still learning about blocking and pre-stretching but have learned that hard stretching over a sharp-ish edge tends to make things thin, if not cracked or cut. It may be better to stretch that area of metal a little beforehand.....

There's lots of ways to do a project. Much depends upon you and what you have at your disposal. Until the last few weeks, I've had few "real" Metalshaping tools or machines beyond my English wheel.

It'll be a good looking scoop whe you're finished. Keep us posted.
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  #12  
Old 06-19-2020, 01:11 PM
Jaroslav Jaroslav is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuda416 View Post
Thanks Matt, for most of that I'd agree, but if you look at the picture, the raised area on the top (not the crease) doesn't go all the way from front to back, but actually forms a sort of "U" shape with the flat bottom. The center ridge doesn't go all the way from front to back. Still, you raise good points and the brake ideas is exactly how I was going to make the creases along the sides to start the downward folds on the sides and back, then shrink the corners. I suppose could make the crease and then shrink the spots where it's not supposed to have the crease back down. In my perfect worlds, which is admittedly far from reality due to my lack of current skill and experience with metal shaping, is that there are no welded spots. I know this will be a real challenge and I may make several attempts before i get it right or succumb to cutting/welding corners instead of hammer forming.



I've attached a couple of more pictures showing the details. The steel one, I believe to be an original part.

Attachment 56673

Attachment 56674

You can use a bead roller or like me use an EW. If you make a larger gap between the wheels, you will make an oblique profile.


http://www.allmetalshaping.com/showthread.php?t=18071
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  #13  
Old 06-19-2020, 07:24 PM
Cuda416 Cuda416 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffrod View Post
Corey, if you haven't seen my beginners project thread covering my cowl plenum breather build, it might have some details to help you with your project. It's different but similar in terms of general shapes.

http://www.allmetalshaping.com/showthread.php?t=18299

One thing I learned about maintaining a tight fit to the hammerform when using a male shape hammerform (metal being formed over the form, not into a hollow female area) was significant. Turning a slight reverse in the metal -think folding the outward edge into a slight flange where it will first start being formed over the hammerform- will help you stretch the metal somewhat over the form. A much tighter fit will be established and maintained while you're corking the material over the hammerform.

How tall is the back of your scoop? Depending upon material used, I would consider making it from a single piece like either the top or bottom half of my breather. If so, any hammerform could be pretty simple with only the rear portion needed to be solid enough to support the hammer work. The sides could be formed/bent into position as the rear shape is developed. I would add the top & middle detail last. If it didn't work, I would do it different on the second attempt...

You could make a complete hammerform with all the detail. It's extra work. I like making the shape like that as practice & prep. It often helps me solve the project details before I start.

Can't offer any advice about bead rolling. I've never used one. To initiate a bend or line, it's simple to use the English Wheel to push up/down as needed against the square edge of the upper wheel or flat lower anvil. Go slow to follow the line and it works well.

I also create and define detail over an appropriate shaped tool (convenient or purpose made) held by hand or in the vise. Using a slapper (wood or metal) works better for me than a rubber mallet. I have a hard plastic mallet that I use some, but find better results for many things using my homemade slappers. I'm still learning about blocking and pre-stretching but have learned that hard stretching over a sharp-ish edge tends to make things thin, if not cracked or cut. It may be better to stretch that area of metal a little beforehand.....

There's lots of ways to do a project. Much depends upon you and what you have at your disposal. Until the last few weeks, I've had few "real" Metalshaping tools or machines beyond my English wheel.

It'll be a good looking scoop whe you're finished. Keep us posted.

Thanks Clifford, I think given my current skill set, or lack thereof, I won't try too much hammer forming, like doing the whole thing. I'm hoping to get away with just doing the corners.



To answer your question, the rear edge is only about 3/4 to 1-1/4 inches high. The front opening is 3-1/2 inches high. Think of how a boss 429 scoop is, then squish it down. Wider, longer but the same general shape with the front corner turned down and extending forward of the nose slightly.



I'm planning on getting a 4x8 sheet of 20g this Monday. I'll need some for the floor replacement anyway. Two birds and all.



I just hope I can do the original justice and not make it look like something someone though out the window at 100Mph
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  #14  
Old 06-19-2020, 07:27 PM
Cuda416 Cuda416 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jaroslav View Post
You can use a bead roller or like me use an EW. If you make a larger gap between the wheels, you will make an oblique profile.


http://www.allmetalshaping.com/showthread.php?t=18071

Good points, but at the moment, I have neither so I'm stuck with ugly hacks and good old Improvising, adapting and overcoming. If this pans out, I intend to invest in, make , find "borrow" other more advanced tools. That said, I'd really like to understand the basic techniques and workings before I try to employ the big guns. None of that will do me any good if I don't know why the metal moves the way it does, when it does etc.
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  #15  
Old 06-19-2020, 09:45 PM
Marc Bourget Marc Bourget is online now
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There's a video of a pail maker in someplace like India or Bangladesh that will show lots of technique with minimal tools that might be worth your time.
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  #16  
Old 06-20-2020, 01:17 AM
Jaroslav Jaroslav is offline
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Corey. If you have a monkey you have to have a banana for it. A monkey can fall at you from a tree on which bananas grow.
I have a friend who does top work and has only a hammer, a small bead roller and improvised EW and pulling jaws. Because he wants to quit, he no longer wants to expand equipment. He wants to finish for 20 years and the situation is still the same. I don't understand how he can do it. Talent.
When I did bought quality machines and home made great EW, in this point, I found out how much I don't know.
You don't have to borrow too much to make something, the return is problematic.
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  #17  
Old 06-20-2020, 07:44 AM
Cuda416 Cuda416 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaroslav View Post
Corey. If you have a monkey you have to have a banana for it. A monkey can fall at you from a tree on which bananas grow.
I have a friend who does top work and has only a hammer, a small bead roller and improvised EW and pulling jaws. Because he wants to quit, he no longer wants to expand equipment. He wants to finish for 20 years and the situation is still the same. I don't understand how he can do it. Talent.
When I did bought quality machines and home made great EW, in this point, I found out how much I don't know.
You don't have to borrow too much to make something, the return is problematic.

Hah, well I'm sure my work will look like a monkey did it for a while. I've considered making improvised tools like EW's out of cast iron castors (polished) and still might but at this point, I'm just going to learn to use the basics with basic tools. Thanks.
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  #18  
Old 06-20-2020, 08:34 AM
Jaroslav Jaroslav is offline
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OK. Check out some of my threads. I use everything that spins. Bearings, small and large, weights from the gym ...... save time and money. The results have already arrived. You can have do the basic equipment very cheaply.

If you don't succeed, you can throw it away and you won't be sad or ruined from working with a hand hammer - from the Stone Age.


I was got a lot of ideas at this place and I'm returning some from me.
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Last edited by Jaroslav; 06-20-2020 at 08:42 AM.
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  #19  
Old 06-21-2020, 07:05 AM
Cuda416 Cuda416 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaroslav View Post
OK. Check out some of my threads. I use everything that spins. Bearings, small and large, weights from the gym ...... save time and money. The results have already arrived. You can have do the basic equipment very cheaply.

If you don't succeed, you can throw it away and you won't be sad or ruined from working with a hand hammer - from the Stone Age.


I was got a lot of ideas at this place and I'm returning some from me.

Thanks, I'll definately go through it.
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