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Old 08-17-2019, 06:24 PM
neilb's Avatar
neilb neilb is offline
MetalShaper of the Month March 2019
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Melbourne OZ
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Originally Posted by Kerry Pinkerton View Post
I hear what you're saying but that is an experience thing don't you think?
eyesight is eyesight, knowing what you are looking at is experience, fixing what you can see is experience

Originally Posted by Kerry Pinkerton View Post
I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours on my roadster because I did not have a hard buck to work against. Although I had the panels shaped to mirror images of the left side (which was the first side completed) by making FSPs and turning them inside out. Without a hard buck, I could not get them in proper arrangement relative to each other. Once I welded them together, it became impossible to change the arrangement because the shape was 'trapped'. This really, really bit me in the butt.
i see... if you had one side shaped as you wanted, why not take contours from that side. shape them in wood and make a buck for the other side?
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Old 08-17-2019, 06:44 PM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Near Huntsville, Alabama. Just south of the Tennessee line off I65
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Originally Posted by neilb View Post
...i see... if you had one side shaped as you wanted, why not take contours from that side. shape them in wood and make a buck for the other side?

Short answer is because I was a dumbass.

It sounds so easy when you say it now. Unfortunately, when I was at that point no one was telling me I was screwing up. I guess they 'ASSUMEd' I knew what I was doing. When one ASSUMES, they make and ASS out of U and ME.
Kerry Pinkerton
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Old 08-17-2019, 09:28 PM
fred26t fred26t is offline
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Garden Grove, Ca
Posts: 251
Default Did anybody see the section on E-wheel maintenance?

Free hand, metal buck, wood buck, cement casting, silicone cast who cares?
I liked the e-wheel part. Fred26T
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Old 08-18-2019, 11:46 AM
Marc Bourget Marc Bourget is offline
Join Date: May 2013
Location: North Ca
Posts: 711

This thread may slip into behavior portrayed by an old Bud Light Commercial.

"Tastes Great" vs. "It's Light"

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Old 08-18-2019, 01:31 PM
cliffrod cliffrod is offline
MetalShaper of the Month January 2020, March 2022
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Spartanburg, SC
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I worked for years in stone, for the most part, without producing a specific model for every job. Lots of reasons and lots of practice just doing it. I learned a lot but my work didn't move to the next level until making a specific model for every job became SOP. Even when not accurately duplicating the model by measurement, problems are resolved in the less expensive model before proceeding to the job. In the long run, making bucks for metal is the best use of my time.

Paper vs FSP? I like paper, for several reasons.

Paper Patterns are fast, simple and cheap. They provide basic information about overall job composition while providing clear instruction about how to create the job form via bending (smooth paper) and shape via shrinking (folds & wrinkles). This instruction helps me plan future work, such as welding like-dimensioned areas of metal to neighboring pieces. A Paper Pattern is actually or essentially monolithic, just like the blank of sheet metal. So the information and instruction provided is perfectly analogous and appropriate to the job at hand. I can trust what I have in hand to guide me well through the entire process.

FSP provides better visual 3D information about the overall composition because it maintains a more aesthetically pleasing composition. They are more complicated, expensive and time consuming to produce- maybe not $$$, but more than paper. Since an FSP is fabricated from numerous pieces of tape that are manipulated to eliminate all folds and wrinkles during construction, all instruction about creating form and shape is lost. The fabricated FSP is not monolithic like the metal blank, which means I'm comparing apples to oranges when comparing model to job. If I made a panel from several uniquely cut & bent strips of metal, the FSP would be more analogous. With the instruction data lost, it makes it more challenging to produce the job as well as planning where metal thickness along edges will remain as original dimension or change. This complicates future welding to other panels. I have surrendered instruction, ease of planning and now have to work more by my wits alone. Maybe I can do that without issue, but I would rather not when I don't have to.

A simple solution would be to make an FSP, finished with adhesive top layer (glue, double-sided tape, etc) to which a Paper Pattern is attached with all folds and wrinkles intact. This hybrid FSP-PP would allow the FSP to act similar to a mother (hard support) of a silicone mold as used when casting plaster. All information about composition and all instruction to produce the job have been captured. Since you cannot remove the Paper pattern now to perfectly outline the necessary metal blank for cutting, a duplicate paper pattern would be needed. This hybrid approach may help some who benefit from having a tangible 3D object in hand to guide their work. Others may just make the Paper Pattern once and proceed.

Different studios, different Masters and Apprentices, different methods. One of my Masters also taught me by example to not verbalized what I see as good/bad or right/wrong in most situations, but to only offer whether I like it or not if I say anything at all. That is one of the best lessons I have ever learned.
AC Button II Carolina Sculpture Studio Channel
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Old 08-20-2019, 05:35 AM
skintkarter skintkarter is offline
MetalShaper of the Month Nov. 2018, Jan. 2021
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Wise words AC
"I know nothing. I from Barcelona" (Manuel - Fawlty Towers)
Link to our racecar project
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Old 08-21-2019, 01:41 PM
Johnny C. Johnny C. is offline
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Denver, CO.
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I think Wray's series on the Jag bonnet is great. Disregard the flexible pattern if you like, but he shows many techniques seldom seen in other videos. Some of things he shows are tedious but good metal shaping can be very tedious. The results Wray gets show that his methods are good. Almost any technique will be of value at least once if you keep working at metal shaping long enough.
Johnny C.
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Old 08-21-2019, 01:55 PM
Joe Swamp Joe Swamp is offline
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 24

I have to say I don't understand the dislike of flexible shape patterns. It's just a tool that permits you to accurately wheel/shrink/stretch the workpiece when it's bent into a different configuration ("out of arrangement"). This saves time because you only have to bend the piece to its final configuration at the end.

It's true you do have to know how to read the pattern but it's not that hard -- essentially you just iteratively work on areas of maximum disagreement until you get the workpiece to fit. The nice thing is that you can bend the workpiece into any convenient configuration while you're doing this.

I am certainly no expert metalshaper but I did take a class with Wray once and I was really impressed by how easy this method was for a beginner.
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:40 AM
toreadorxlt toreadorxlt is offline
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Originally Posted by neilb View Post
i'm sorry i have to disagree, he went to a lot of effort for nothing and that flexible shape pattern fitted even when the panel looked like a barrel. not for me sorry

That is the magic of the FSP and why wray loves it. It looked like barrel and that was only arrangement. It looked like a barrel for a reason, so he could fit the lowest crown die in thats possible. He was able to check shape and get the shape right then he was able to set arrangement....

Myself I work totally different than wray, and dont use FSPs because im typically creating stuff that doesn't exist, and I don't think making a wood buck is the worst thing in the world, but his method does have validity in recreating things, and he teaches hobbyists how to do it with minimal tools with good results. I'd rather live with a power hammer and pullmax much to his dismay haha.
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Old 08-22-2019, 11:21 AM
Maxakarudy Maxakarudy is offline
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Origin of the wheel, UK
Posts: 630

I was a bit sceptical about fsp's, however after watching Wray use them I can see their worth, but whether someone new to metalshaping would grasp how to read them would be a stretch.

The tradtidional paper patterns demonstrate the shrink & stretch areas easily, but if you can't deep shrink with power tools & have to rely mostly on stretch, then even paper patterns have their limitations and therefore a buck is necessary.

Regarding Wray's video which I've enjoyed watching, he did make it difficult for himself in 5b, by putting all the returns in & locking the shape up before using the profile pattterns & trying to set the arrangement last, I'm sure he would not do this on the other side of the nose piece.

Coinsidentally I attempted to make the complete nose piece at MPH Panels last year, Geoff Moss uses a fibreglass buck, he demonstrated how to make one from a flat paper pattern & barr pulling the nose around the buck & chasing the headlight joggle in, it took him 25 minutes, as he's made 100's of these, I spent 2 days trying to do the same, I think he ended up cutting mine into small sections & parts of wings from them

No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead!!!!
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