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Old 09-22-2019, 01:45 PM
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drivejunk drivejunk is offline
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Default Metal roof inserts on prewar Fords- how to prepare?

An upcoming task at work is installing a prefabricated, ribbed roof insert on a 1930 coupe. I have used a Camaro roof section to fill the roof hole on a 1932, successfully, three years ago.

What I would like to know, from anyone who has filled a Model A roof before, is what approach is proper or known to work concerning support during trimming to fit and during welding.

Such as: Knowing that roof sides and rear window panel edges have all been bent and repaired an untold number of times, do you...

Set the insert over the unsupported opening and scribe around it to start?

or

Lay the insert over a support structure which holds the insert up against the opening from underneath.

One way, the opening supports the weight of the insert. The other way, it is reversed so the insert supports the opening.

Right now, the insert is in position laying over the opening and tacked to help hold the body together for other fab work. A fabbed roof support structure is in place and adjustable. It looks not awful like that but overworked metal issues exist at every edge of the opening and the new ribbed insert is less than perfect as well.

When I did the nice 33 3 window Model B, I set the insert on top. It worked despite my questionable welding technique but the 30 Model A is a beaten and chopped five window affair with a much larger roof hole. Where a cloth and wood insert originally was.

So I see the trimming step to be critical and I suspect that having the insert underneath is how I will do it. But I am no metal genius, just an ex crash guy adapting to classics. I know back in the day they might rent a buzz box and cover the hole with a sign so the Mrs doesn't get rained on but this is different.

Top or bottom? Why would be good too. Thanks for reading.
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:07 AM
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No old Ford guys here? Oh, well. Pretend its something else then. Would you lay the new piece on top or underneath, to begin marking for butt joint trimming?





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Old 09-25-2019, 08:05 AM
rookie rookie is offline
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Look and see which option will give you the best access for planishing the weld and go from there. Also, I would lay it over the top, scribe and try to give yourself the least damaged metal you can.
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Last edited by rookie; 09-25-2019 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 09-25-2019, 08:52 AM
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Steve Hamilton Steve Hamilton is offline
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I see a couple things that I would work out prior to welding in the roof.

1. I would finish all of the welding for the top chop. much easier to work on that if you can work from the open roof.

2. get the roof panel shaped to fit the car much better. looks to have a big sag in the middle. after you weld the panel in it will nearly impossible to get lifted up.

since the ribs are above the panel you only have one choice the it has to go on the top.

what welding method are you using? MIG , TIG, OXY

a model A roof has a high point @ about the back of the door, so the use of a roof that is a straight line (ribs) from front to back past the high point is a problem. That is why you have puckers along the sides above the B pillar area.

Steve
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Old 09-25-2019, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rookie View Post
Look and see which option will give you the best access for planishing the weld and go from there. Also, I would lay it over the top, scribe and try to give yourself the least damaged metal you can.
There can be planishing room all around. Yes, I will not trim the insert. Just the adjacent panels. One vote for top, thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Hamilton View Post
I see a couple things that I would work out prior to welding in the roof.

1. I would finish all of the welding for the top chop. much easier to work on that if you can work from the open roof.

2. get the roof panel shaped to fit the car much better. looks to have a big sag in the middle. after you weld the panel in it will nearly impossible to get lifted up.

since the ribs are above the panel you only have one choice the it has to go on the top.

what welding method are you using? MIG , TIG, OXY

a model A roof has a high point @ about the back of the door, so the use of a roof that is a straight line (ribs) from front to back past the high point is a problem. That is why you have puckers along the sides above the B pillar area.

Steve

Thanks, Steve.

The top chop has been done. Maybe a little welding is left. Old pic.

Currently the shape is looking much better and the insert is tacked over the top.

The ribs are curved and would not affect which side of the opening I have the insert on when marking.

MIG. Miller 212, .plain 030 wire.

Just... if you have a square with low crown and you are to splice it into a low crowned opening.... which side would you have the square on?

It has occurred to me that I could weld with it upside down, from inside. But shaping and welding aren't really the question. What side to put the insert on and how or whether to support any of it is. I am aware of the flat between B pillars and yeah, the thing is crazy looking but it isn't all flat. Insert looked like a potato chip fresh out of the box. My question is what theory to embrace rather than how to conquer issues specific to this build.
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Old 09-25-2019, 04:17 PM
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I would try to get it to lay flat around the edge. Maybe using a shrinker to tighten it up. Then scribe the roof and cut. I think Kent White posted about a model a roof, or has something on his website.
Good luck, looks like a nice project.
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Old 09-25-2019, 06:27 PM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
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Default Model A Ford roof insert

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve.murphy View Post
I would try to get it to lay flat around the edge. Maybe using a shrinker to tighten it up. Then scribe the roof and cut. I think Kent White posted about a model a roof, or has something on his website.
Good luck, looks like a nice project.

I did post doing a Model A Ford roof insert here, on my albums. Click on my sig and pick that album out from the other albums. Should be sorta helpful?


Otherwise, it is not that hard to hammer a fresh skin out of 20ga cold rolled, after getting your pattern info collected - front to rear profiles, side to side profiles, etc. Mark the panel for shape amounts and locations with black pen, and start hitting it. I have found that the shape is not that much, so I don't think of using a shrinker on those skins. It's fun to whack it out, after trimming the hole to get a clean edge to work with, all around the opening. I pretty much show the trim-tack-skipweld-planish process clearly, and use a straight-edge to confirm contour - fit across the weld seams.
Good luck and write if you find work ...
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve.murphy View Post
I would try to get it to lay flat around the edge. Maybe using a shrinker to tighten it up. Then scribe the roof and cut. I think Kent White posted about a model a roof, or has something on his website.
Good luck, looks like a nice project.
Thanks for the tip, I looked through those pics. Mighty small pictures though, and I think it is of something completely different. I am using a prefabricated, ribbed insert and making the whole top seamless. T strips are gone, etc.

Here are more recent pics taken to show the drip rail tuck but the roof status can be seen somewhat. This really isn't about how it looks or gets welded. But I am catching a general vibe that nobody else is thinking of putting the insert under the hole during final fitting and trimming. Thats what I came to feel out.







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Old 09-25-2019, 07:30 PM
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Just a personal opinion, but ribbed roof panels are so 1980’s. I’d do a smooth roof and have something more timeless...
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crystallographic View Post
I did post doing a Model A Ford roof insert here, on my albums. Click on my sig and pick that album out from the other albums. Should be sorta helpful?


Otherwise, it is not that hard to hammer a fresh skin out of 20ga cold rolled, after getting your pattern info collected - front to rear profiles, side to side profiles, etc. Mark the panel for shape amounts and locations with black pen, and start hitting it. I have found that the shape is not that much, so I don't think of using a shrinker on those skins. It's fun to whack it out, after trimming the hole to get a clean edge to work with, all around the opening. I pretty much show the trim-tack-skipweld-planish process clearly, and use a straight-edge to confirm contour - fit across the weld seams.
Good luck and write if you find work ...
Whew, man. Theres no shortage of that! Wallowing in piles of jobs to start.

Thank you SO much for the one tidbit that everybody knows except me. About the right sides. Is it all in the roof? I have fussed over quarter differences quite a bit but the top and roof sides have to be last to correct because of the construction. This is far from a traditional build but it will have some of that look. There is fabrication everywhere you look. Been a fun challenge and the roof insert will crown it all.
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