All MetalShaping

Go Back   All MetalShaping > Metal Shaping Projects > Automotive Projects
  Today's Posts Posts for Last 7 Days Posts for Last 14 Days  

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 07-23-2020, 07:48 AM
drivejunk drivejunk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Springdale, AR USA
Posts: 124
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schroeder View Post

I have a very helpful "mentor" of sorts I consult on another forum. He has suggested I make it out of multiple pieces, and that's what I'm beginning to concede to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaroslav View Post
You have to try. Definitely don't give up. And don't accept stupid cutting advice.
Stupid, really? In english, that is an insult.

This may be why your "mentor" is on another forum, Schroeder.
__________________
Matt
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-23-2020, 08:54 AM
Jack 1957's Avatar
Jack 1957 Jack 1957 is offline
MetalShaper of the Month Dec. 2016, Sept 2019
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Strongsville,OH
Posts: 975
Default

You need to stretch the area between 14 and 16, not shrink
__________________
Jack

Set a Goal So Big That You Can't Achieve It Until You Grow Into The Person That Can.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-23-2020, 10:01 AM
Schroeder Schroeder is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: nw Ohio
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack 1957 View Post
You need to stretch the area between 14 and 16, not shrink
Are you talking about as shown in this pic, Jack?

Name:  EW flare to bring flare down.jpg
Views: 419
Size:  45.5 KB
__________________
Jordan

Here for my '77 Trans Am

Last edited by Schroeder; 07-23-2020 at 10:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-23-2020, 11:53 AM
Jack 1957's Avatar
Jack 1957 Jack 1957 is offline
MetalShaper of the Month Dec. 2016, Sept 2019
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Strongsville,OH
Posts: 975
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schroeder View Post
Are you talking about as shown in this pic, Jack?

Jordan, I was looking at the picture below on my cell phone. I am now on my desktop and getting a better view. It appears that you have a wire buck on the fender. If the buck is correct and the face of the flare is snug against it without pulling it in with the clamps, then it appears that you have cut the edge of the piece too short in the area where your gap is. If the clamp is pulling the piece into position, then you might need to trim in the area circled in the picture below to allow the edge to come into place in the 13, 14, 15 area. I would focus on getting the wheeled area in the exact shape you need. Smooth and consistent. Then see where your edges end up.
If you view this piece as a test panel that might end up being scrap, it frees your mind to explore different solutions with no stress. If you can save it, cool. If not, learn from it. You are very close right now. Also, there is no shame in making it in two pieces if you're having trouble making it in one piece. Skill level and time are always factors.
There was a pretty complex panel on the back end of my project that I wanted to try in one piece. I made an attempt but started realizing that what I was attempting to accomplish would require a lot of time and effort whereas making it in two pieces would be just a few hours' work.



Name:  IMG_20200721_214036.jpg
Views: 403
Size:  40.3 KB
__________________
Jack

Set a Goal So Big That You Can't Achieve It Until You Grow Into The Person That Can.

Last edited by Jack 1957; 07-23-2020 at 11:55 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-23-2020, 01:14 PM
Rick Mullin Rick Mullin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Malvern,PA
Posts: 120
Default

I too have been looking at this at night on my cell phone. I am now at my desk and realize that there is a gap between the panels at the edge. My original impression was that it was tight at the top edge. I am still looking at the distortion at the clamps which tells me the area is too full. My original comment of stretching the top edge will increase the gap and be of no benefit. It appears as though the entire panel is a bit large.

Sectioning it and then wheeling is one solution. You could also unfold the outer edge and see if you can then get the entire panel to lay down and then re-flange after the corrections are made.

As jack said, there is nothing wrong with starting over having used this as a lesson. There is no right or wrong. I do this professionally and I don't always get it right first time out. The key is to know when to stop and regroup. Forgetting the lost time, there is the additional concern of overworking the panel.

There is another thing to consider in making this panel. It appears as though you have stopped the top edge in the valley of the reverse curve. That is a very risky place to weld. I would include the full reverse in the new part and weld out in the open panel where you can planish your weld. You can not planish the weld adequately in the reverse or it will reduce the shape of the valley (think shrink vs. stretch in a reverse). If you choose to keep going with the existing panel, I would get the part to lay down where you want it and then butt weld a 1 1/2 inch strip to the top edge which you can then stretch on the wheel to integrate the full reverse on your new part. Sounds like a lot of work but the alternative amount of corrective work to weld the panel in place in the valley of the reverse is significant.

If you opt to start over, make the panel to include the full reverse and a bit beyond. Wait to flange the outer edge until you are fully satisfied with the shape and fit. Flanging too early only traps in the problems as you are currently experiencing
__________________
Rick
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-23-2020, 03:02 PM
Schroeder Schroeder is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: nw Ohio
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drivejunk View Post

This may be why your "mentor" is on another forum, Schroeder.
Hey, IDJ!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack 1957 View Post
Jordan, I was looking at the picture below on my cell phone. I am now on my desktop and getting a better view. It appears that you have a wire buck on the fender. If the buck is correct and the face of the flare is snug against it without pulling it in with the clamps, then it appears that you have cut the edge of the piece too short in the area where your gap is. If the clamp is pulling the piece into position, then you might need to trim in the area circled in the picture below to allow the edge to come into place in the 13, 14, 15 area. I would focus on getting the wheeled area in the exact shape you need. Smooth and consistent. Then see where your edges end up.
If you view this piece as a test panel that might end up being scrap, it frees your mind to explore different solutions with no stress. If you can save it, cool. If not, learn from it. You are very close right now. Also, there is no shame in making it in two pieces if you're having trouble making it in one piece. Skill level and time are always factors.
There was a pretty complex panel on the back end of my project that I wanted to try in one piece. I made an attempt but started realizing that what I was attempting to accomplish would require a lot of time and effort whereas making it in two pieces would be just a few hours' work.



Attachment 56925


Thanks for the reply, Jack. The area you are suggesting to cut dives down too like it needs shrank or stretched. i have a hard time determining if flat edges need shrank or stretched when they get oil-canny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Mullin View Post
I too have been looking at this at night on my cell phone. I am now at my desk and realize that there is a gap between the panels at the edge. My original impression was that it was tight at the top edge. I am still looking at the distortion at the clamps which tells me the area is too full. My original comment of stretching the top edge will increase the gap and be of no benefit. It appears as though the entire panel is a bit large.

Sectioning it and then wheeling is one solution. You could also unfold the outer edge and see if you can then get the entire panel to lay down and then re-flange after the corrections are made.

As jack said, there is nothing wrong with starting over having used this as a lesson. There is no right or wrong. I do this professionally and I don't always get it right first time out. The key is to know when to stop and regroup. Forgetting the lost time, there is the additional concern of overworking the panel.

There is another thing to consider in making this panel. It appears as though you have stopped the top edge in the valley of the reverse curve. That is a very risky place to weld. I would include the full reverse in the new part and weld out in the open panel where you can planish your weld. You can not planish the weld adequately in the reverse or it will reduce the shape of the valley (think shrink vs. stretch in a reverse). If you choose to keep going with the existing panel, I would get the part to lay down where you want it and then butt weld a 1 1/2 inch strip to the top edge which you can then stretch on the wheel to integrate the full reverse on your new part. Sounds like a lot of work but the alternative amount of corrective work to weld the panel in place in the valley of the reverse is significant.

If you opt to start over, make the panel to include the full reverse and a bit beyond. Wait to flange the outer edge until you are fully satisfied with the shape and fit. Flanging too early only traps in the problems as you are currently experiencing
Rick, are you suggesting the order of operations should be
-cut from tape template. leave 2-3" extra around
-wheel in shape
-wheel in reverse curve to meet body
-make sure it sits on the buck perfect
-tip 1st edge that makes flare face
-tip 2nd edge that creates inner fender lip
-trim to fit
?


what are my best deep shrink options with basic tools? tuck shrinking seems to work well with a tuck fork, but the metal is soooo hard in these areas after planishing. not sure if it's work-hardened or just thicker.

I think im making this much harder by having a flare edge face that is perpendicular to the ground at the widest part and then is parallel to the quarter below the body line. this requires a lot of deep shrinking at the body line to make the flare hug the quarter above and below the body line. it gave the improvement shown in my latest pics. If I made the flare face planar (it would sit flat on a table) and trimmed the side that met the car profile accordingly this might be simpler. That means the edge face isn't perpendicular to the ground, but i have some pics of a car that flared like this (and now after trying maybe that's why they did it) and it looks good. The attached CAD drawing shows what I mean.

Name:  flare drawing question.jpg
Views: 310
Size:  36.6 KB

Name:  Flare close up drawing.jpg
Views: 315
Size:  38.2 KB
__________________
Jordan

Here for my '77 Trans Am
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-23-2020, 05:00 PM
Jaroslav Jaroslav is offline
MetalShaper of the Month April 2020
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 1,411
Default

It might help you close the shape, but I don't know, you have to try. The paper template will tell you exactly where you need to shape. Material if will be extra can you cut or not.



Name:  DSC03831.jpg
Views: 377
Size:  11.1 KB
__________________
Jaroslav
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-24-2020, 07:24 AM
Schroeder Schroeder is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: nw Ohio
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaroslav View Post
It might help you close the shape, but I don't know, you have to try. The paper template will tell you exactly where you need to shape. Material if will be extra can you cut or not.



Attachment 56930

Jaroslav, what is the picture of the reverse curve lip bending down? Are you saying I should tip the fender face and the inner fender lip right away?
__________________
Jordan

Here for my '77 Trans Am
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-24-2020, 11:25 AM
Jaroslav Jaroslav is offline
MetalShaper of the Month April 2020
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 1,411
Default

The bent edge will hold your shape until you finish the shape you wanted to make. If you then cut it off, the shape will remain the same. If you don't succeed on the first try, repeat, don't give up, you'll succeed.


I caught something about insult or stupid advice. So good otherwise. Not every well-meaning piece of advice is good. She can be pretty stupid.
Beware of stupidity is always one step ahead.
__________________
Jaroslav
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-25-2020, 11:02 PM
Schroeder Schroeder is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: nw Ohio
Posts: 18
Default

Ok, last try before doing this in multiple pieces. I figure this attempt can be cut in to multiple pieces, so either way this isn't a waste. In an attempt to do it in one piece I got to this point and stopped because things are already out of hand for a noobie like me. The blue tape template is the 1st one I made. The baby blue wrapping paper template was one I made today to see if a flimsier paper would show more shrink and stretch lines. I think this flimsy paper is more unmanageable and much more worthless. It appears as if I could lay a flat piece of steel down this this. The only places that showed much was the inner lip flange that showed I need some stretching. The tape template shows a lot of raised "ruffles" if you look in the pics. Sine there ruffles are there when laying flat, does that indicate that becomes a stretch on the finished piece on the car?
The 2nd attempt at the flare is 2nd from the top below the tape template. The 1st attempt is bottom. The new template is 3rd from the top. It is almost identical to the tape template, so that was good to find today. At least I thought so.
Here's what I did to the 2nd attempt piece:
1. Cut from template. ~2" around all sides additional.

2. English wheel ~12.5" radius into flare. I started wheeling at the ID and worked to the OD of the panel. By the time I was done with the OD it had dove down very badly. It was almost a 90 bend.

3. Stretch ID. This didn't seem to be doing anything other than ruffling the piece, so I shrank it back and a touch more.

4. Shrank OD, and the edge came back up. I should note that only the center section on the OD dove down ~90. It was not the entire OD edge.

QUESTIONS:
1.) Notice how the front square edge is letter off the table. How should I fix this?

2.) how do I make the reverse curve that will be the part that fades in to the quarter panel? So I just flip the panel over and wheel it the other way? At what point should I do it?

3.) When should I tip the flanges?

4.) Do you see a need for deep shrinking in this project? I did some on the first panel at the body line behind the wheel well. I used a tuck fork. I then planished the tucks. It brought the flare in close to the body, but the metal was hard there. Do I need a deep shrinking to do this in one piece?




Some of jaros links show him shrinking the edges a lot before ever going to the wheel. I'm not sure this applies to me since I don't have that deep shrinker. I'm also loosely following a flare-making video series by lazze on YouTube.

Name:  flares and templates.jpg
Views: 228
Size:  82.9 KB

Name:  flares and templates view 2.jpg
Views: 208
Size:  71.0 KB

Name:  2nd template tape close 2.jpg
Views: 200
Size:  78.6 KB

Name:  2nd template tape close.jpg
Views: 217
Size:  79.3 KB

Name:  2nd attempt view 2.jpg
Views: 224
Size:  80.8 KB

Name:  2nd template with shrinking tape marks.jpg
Views: 220
Size:  65.8 KB

Name:  2nd attempt view 1.jpg
Views: 215
Size:  59.3 KB
__________________
Jordan

Here for my '77 Trans Am

Last edited by galooph; 07-26-2020 at 03:11 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:34 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.