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  #21  
Old 07-26-2020, 02:12 AM
Jaroslav Jaroslav is offline
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Maybe you're a little better now. But the first part is almost good. I'll give you a basic idea. Work to keep the sheet metal soft. Don't be afraid to bend the part over your knee.The wave is created where there is too much metal and it is necessary to pull the fibers.
If you make a piece of wire as I showed you, you will make a paper template for it. You cut the template. You see what you need. On the bike - EW - use a little pressure and it will be good.
I won't be a week, you will can keep trying. When be the piece succeeds, take a photo of that pile of unsuccessful parts for the other participants so that they don't think it's easy.
For 3 months I searched for a way to one product and it worked. You have to endure the effort and think a lot. There are always more ways. If you don't touch the material, you don't know.


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  #22  
Old 07-26-2020, 12:11 PM
Schroeder Schroeder is offline
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Thanks for the reply, jaro. I do have a wire frame buck under the tape or paper template and sheet metal panel. I'm having a heck of a time getting pics on this site. I have to email them to a desktop, resize in paint, email them back to myself, save the pics on my phone, and then I can upload. It's a time consuming process.

I'll keep working on this. Jaro (and everyone else), if you have time please look at the order of operations I outlined in my last post and the questions I asked. Here are the questions again:

QUESTIONS:
1.) Notice how the front square edge is letter off the table. How should I fix this?

2.) how do I make the reverse curve that will be the part that fades in to the quarter panel? So I just flip the panel over and wheel it the other way? At what point should I do it?

3.) When should I tip the flanges?

4.) Do you see a need for deep shrinking in this project? I did some on the first panel at the body line behind the wheel well. I used a tuck fork. I then planished the tucks. It brought the flare in close to the body, but the metal was hard there. Do I need a deep shrinking to do this in one piece?
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Last edited by Schroeder; 07-26-2020 at 12:21 PM.
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  #23  
Old 07-26-2020, 02:09 PM
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pplace pplace is offline
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It’s very tough for me to add input, as I’m all self taught and I go after each project I do in a trial and error type method. However, my initial reaction to the very basics (or order of operations) that you are curious about would be:

First let’s break the flare down into four descriptions so we are on the same page (starting at the body and working to the wheel lip)

1. The reverse curve that attaches / blends to the quarter panel.
2. The flare itself (the width it extends from the quarter)
3. The wheel opening
4. The wheel opening lip

In a very basic description, only how I think I’d do this....

A. Cut out your sheet metal blank according to your paper pattern (Not too much excess, as that is just more material you have to try to shape, shrink, stretch)
B. Work on shaping and fitting the flare portion to fit your wire buck or frame.
C. Add your reverse curve to the outside perimeter of the flare to match / blend into your quarter panel. Adjust and tweak the flare and the reverse curve so it fits the wire frame without stress.
D. With the flare and reverse curve fitting the wire frame without pressure, mark or trace the edge for the body line where you will tip down to create the wheel opening.
E. Again, adjust and tweak the flare, reverse curve and wheel opening to fit the wire frame. Each “feature” you add to the part makes it trickier you go back and adjust the previous steps (think of it as kind of “locking in” the shape a bit)
F. When all three of those are fitting the wire frame correctly, again trace or mark on the wheel opening where you need to tip to create the wheel opening lip.
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  #24  
Old 07-26-2020, 03:50 PM
drivejunk drivejunk is offline
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Dane said it well, about putting one's self in the other guy's shoes. And I am sort of picking up what Jaro is saying. Not everyone has the luxury of unlimited patience and the amount of labor required to learn to do this in one piece, from where you stand, regardless of your limitless dedication to learning the technicalities and fundamentals... patterns, bucks, fibers, and what not... seems absolutely ridiculous. Stupid, from where I stand. But some folks are willing. My motivation comes from a job, not a hobby. So I learn on the fly without weeks of internet research and study. The advice reflects that.

I didn't realize you had a wire buck under the thing. That might be holding you back. I thought you were planning a flat around the lip. During the week, there isn't time for me to absorb everything but I tried. I think you can see though, that I recognized my / our novice limitations and that those are valid.

Understanding now about the lip, my advice about multiple pieces would change. Fast forward to now, and what I see is what I am usually told when I ask about wheeling: Keep going. In other words, you don't have enough depth in the 11-15 area, out near the numbers yet. And if it was me, I'd clamp it in that vise about where 8 would be and I would twist the whole thing a little. Then I'd open the jaws up, lay it over those and hit the backside because more bend is needed toward the front than you'll get by wheeling til doomsday.

Thats one reason I said the wire buck may hold you back. Imagine the part already attached to the quarter and what you would do at the lip to change the contour, instead of the other way around. That might provide the "A-ha!" for you.

I would also suggest that doing this the dumb way, in pieces, may provide necessary insight for you to build on that could enable you to graduate to a single piece version. A welded piece is no less a piece than one not. The only difference is bragging rights and frankly I think that is the main objective here, with this. So if you want to make a flare, I can probably help. If you want to fit in among the self proclaimed elite, you're on your own. We have communicated plenty in recent years for us to get a feel of one anothers' personalities.

All that having been said, dude just get a photo resizer app. I did. Because my device situation is complex like yours. But yeah, thats all you need to make that simpler, man. I am not going to suggest one, I just picked a well-rated free one from the ocean of resizing apps available for my type of phone, that had the desired features. Ended up rarely using it because I had to get away from this site before egos got the best of me. I am here now because yes, to some degree I took you under my wing a little. I'm a Pontiac nut and bodywork specialist. Could I make a flare? The only way the world could find out is for me to get a customer request.

Again, good luck. Hip shooting with no formal training here. Give it hell, Schroeder. I'd like to see a mark in your win column. And I just invested another hour of prime weekend trying to assist you. Make it count!
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  #25  
Old 07-26-2020, 04:21 PM
drivejunk drivejunk is offline
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I'll go another here, because you all know how it is... the answer often lies in walking away once the big picture is had, to let the mind digest input. After awhile, then it spits out something useful. What I mean is this-

Theres jaw marks all up and down both pieces and I hear you asking about deep something or another, but, putting myself in your shoes... I don't think jaws are even part of this intial stage of shaping. 19 gauge is thin to me, not something you want to stretch a bunch. To me, I say. But everything you are needing to do here is stretch. You are making a desired bulge first, then telling edges where to be.

So its not so much that a place here or there needs shrinking, its that the whole rest of the part needs stretching. To varied degrees. The part that needs shrunk is what to leave alone, the rest is stretch.

Just an afterthought. But it just dawned on me that no, I don't think I would have used jaws at all yet. Right or wrong, theres that. Hope theres some sense in it.
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  #26  
Old 07-26-2020, 06:10 PM
Schroeder Schroeder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pplace View Post
It’s very tough for me to add input, as I’m all self taught and I go after each project I do in a trial and error type method. However, my initial reaction to the very basics (or order of operations) that you are curious about would be:

First let’s break the flare down into four descriptions so we are on the same page (starting at the body and working to the wheel lip)

1. The reverse curve that attaches / blends to the quarter panel.
2. The flare itself (the width it extends from the quarter)
3. The wheel opening
4. The wheel opening lip

In a very basic description, only how I think I’d do this....

A. Cut out your sheet metal blank according to your paper pattern (Not too much excess, as that is just more material you have to try to shape, shrink, stretch)
B. Work on shaping and fitting the flare portion to fit your wire buck or frame.
C. Add your reverse curve to the outside perimeter of the flare to match / blend into your quarter panel. Adjust and tweak the flare and the reverse curve so it fits the wire frame without stress.
D. With the flare and reverse curve fitting the wire frame without pressure, mark or trace the edge for the body line where you will tip down to create the wheel opening.
E. Again, adjust and tweak the flare, reverse curve and wheel opening to fit the wire frame. Each “feature” you add to the part makes it trickier you go back and adjust the previous steps (think of it as kind of “locking in” the shape a bit)
F. When all three of those are fitting the wire frame correctly, again trace or mark on the wheel opening where you need to tip to create the wheel opening lip.


Thanks for the step by step. That's a great opinion and approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drivejunk View Post
Dane said it well, about putting one's self in the other guy's shoes. And I am sort of picking up what Jaro is saying. Not everyone has the luxury of unlimited patience and the amount of labor required to learn to do this in one piece, from where you stand, regardless of your limitless dedication to learning the technicalities and fundamentals... patterns, bucks, fibers, and what not... seems absolutely ridiculous. Stupid, from where I stand. But some folks are willing. My motivation comes from a job, not a hobby. So I learn on the fly without weeks of internet research and study. The advice reflects that.

I didn't realize you had a wire buck under the thing. That might be holding you back. I thought you were planning a flat around the lip. During the week, there isn't time for me to absorb everything but I tried. I think you can see though, that I recognized my / our novice limitations and that those are valid.

Understanding now about the lip, my advice about multiple pieces would change. Fast forward to now, and what I see is what I am usually told when I ask about wheeling: Keep going. In other words, you don't have enough depth in the 11-15 area, out near the numbers yet. And if it was me, I'd clamp it in that vise about where 8 would be and I would twist the whole thing a little. Then I'd open the jaws up, lay it over those and hit the backside because more bend is needed toward the front than you'll get by wheeling til doomsday.

Thats one reason I said the wire buck may hold you back. Imagine the part already attached to the quarter and what you would do at the lip to change the contour, instead of the other way around. That might provide the "A-ha!" for you.

I would also suggest that doing this the dumb way, in pieces, may provide necessary insight for you to build on that could enable you to graduate to a single piece version. A welded piece is no less a piece than one not. The only difference is bragging rights and frankly I think that is the main objective here, with this. So if you want to make a flare, I can probably help. If you want to fit in among the self proclaimed elite, you're on your own. We have communicated plenty in recent years for us to get a feel of one anothers' personalities.

All that having been said, dude just get a photo resizer app. I did. Because my device situation is complex like yours. But yeah, thats all you need to make that simpler, man. I am not going to suggest one, I just picked a well-rated free one from the ocean of resizing apps available for my type of phone, that had the desired features. Ended up rarely using it because I had to get away from this site before egos got the best of me. I am here now because yes, to some degree I took you under my wing a little. I'm a Pontiac nut and bodywork specialist. Could I make a flare? The only way the world could find out is for me to get a customer request.

Again, good luck. Hip shooting with no formal training here. Give it hell, Schroeder. I'd like to see a mark in your win column. And I just invested another hour of prime weekend trying to assist you. Make it count!
Quote:
Originally Posted by drivejunk View Post
I'll go another here, because you all know how it is... the answer often lies in walking away once the big picture is had, to let the mind digest input. After awhile, then it spits out something useful. What I mean is this-

Theres jaw marks all up and down both pieces and I hear you asking about deep something or another, but, putting myself in your shoes... I don't think jaws are even part of this intial stage of shaping. 19 gauge is thin to me, not something you want to stretch a bunch. To me, I say. But everything you are needing to do here is stretch. You are making a desired bulge first, then telling edges where to be.

So its not so much that a place here or there needs shrinking, its that the whole rest of the part needs stretching. To varied degrees. The part that needs shrunk is what to leave alone, the rest is stretch.

Just an afterthought. But it just dawned on me that no, I don't think I would have used jaws at all yet. Right or wrong, theres that. Hope theres some sense in it.
Thanks, IDJ. There have been a lot of comments in here making me feel more comfortable with cutting it. I guess when I started the job I thought that was lowly, wrong, or hillbilly-ish. I'm probably gonna end up cutting it in two. The angling the face in below the body line is giving me fits. I'll keep you posted. In the mean time here's better pics of the buck. Maybe that'll give you guys insight to provide more help too.

I'll try to not beat this to death and just go get it done now whether it's done in 1 piece or 5. Thank you all for your help thus far.

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Last edited by Steve Hamilton; 07-26-2020 at 09:28 PM.
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  #27  
Old 07-26-2020, 06:43 PM
drivejunk drivejunk is offline
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Speaking metal shaping beginner-to- metal shaping beginner, with me having lots of fab experience and you having a first real shaping project with goals beyond what I can imagine attempting....

Theres no shame in the cut. If you wish to dedicate your life to the study of metal shaping, then at the time you have achieved greatness, return to this project, just so that you can say your flares are one piece... thats your option. If you are wanting to get on the road, though... pieces. People at the show will think you did it with fiberglass and bondo regardless of the truth, and people who know metal will cast no stones. They'll know you did something significant and that when you attached it to the car it was probably all one piece.

In a perfect situation, you could mark points and count wheel passes and jaw chews and thus have yourself a guide to repeat this on the other side. But as you see, it just don't work that way. Wish it did.

I never want to discourage, just be real. While I was grocery shopping just now it struck me that if the buck were not attached to the car, this might come easier. Taking the quarter panel face and reverse curve out of it might allow the bulge to be shaped more readily, referencing only the lip line.

I admire your resolve and know how it is to have to keep slugging after you feel beat. Having a place to turn to for guidance is swell, but with this extremely three dimensional and intuitive kind of process, theres only so much we can do, from here. Do keep us posted as it develops, if you wish.
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  #28  
Old 07-27-2020, 08:12 AM
Schroeder Schroeder is offline
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Thanks, IDJ. More sound advice and encouragement.

One more question to you all before I give this a go from a different angle. I am having some areas that need deep shrinking. The only way I can do this is with a fucking fork I made from some ground bolts. When I planish a tuck down there is often a bulge in the panel at the base of the tuck- the base being towards the inside of the panel. Not on the outside. How do I shrink this area? I have tried heat and shrinking discs. It isn't enough. Do I back the bulge with a block of wood and just hammer it down?
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  #29  
Old 07-27-2020, 11:31 AM
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Steve Hamilton Steve Hamilton is offline
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Hi Schroeder

The good news is you did get shrink, as that is what caused the lump!
Yes a hammer or slapped and backed up with soft surface with some mass, should work to shrink the lump.

Your English wheel with the correct lower anvil and very light or no contact will also blend it out. As the panel is fed into the wheel hold it level, then when you get to the bump lift up just a little as you feed the panel farther through the bump, then allow the panel go back to level. This process is using the flat upper like a slapper and the lower anvil as the panel support. The upward pressure is pushing the lump down and causing the metal to flow out into the surrounding area.
More than one way to skin a cat.

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  #30  
Old 04-09-2021, 10:01 AM
Chad_C Chad_C is offline
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As another Trans Am fan I hope you are still working on this! A big undertaking for sure but I bet the final result will look tough!
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