All MetalShaping

Go Back   All MetalShaping > General Metal Shaping Discussion > General Discussion
  Today's Posts Posts for Last 7 Days Posts for Last 14 Days  

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-28-2010, 06:57 PM
jhnarial's Avatar
jhnarial jhnarial is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Excelsior Springs Mo.
Posts: 2,836
Default Flexible shape patterns discussion

Let's start a discussion on flexible shape patterns - Pro's and Con's, Tips" and Tricks, makeing them, understanding how to read them and in and out of arrangement.

They are a very powerful tool as far as I am concerned. I don't think I could reproduce a panel without one.

The pro's

I haven't found a better pattern that will give you the information on how much shape needs to be put into a panel.

The con's:

They are a little pricey to make

Here is couple of tricks I found that work for me.

Before making one I wipe some baby powder on the panel first

I used to use Packing Tape, I changed awhile back and now use

test run 6 353.jpg

I like it so much better, It is so much softer to the touch. Plus it is a little cheaper.

When pulling the pattern off, make sure you pull it against the the laps of the low stick tape so it comes up with the strapping tape.

I have been using the green painter's tape but I just read where Kerry mentioned the purple tape. I'm going to try it next time.

I used to use a file to trim the edges, I found that it leaves the edges a little frayed. I now use a sharp razor blade, I get a cleaner edge by doing so.

Put line up holes on the pattern.

Reading the pattern

I place the pattern upside down and hold it down so I can visualize what needs to be done.

I then place it upside down on a blank and mark it out. I like to leave about 1 1/2'' more than I need. Depending on how much shape is in the panel, marking it exactly 1 1/2'' is pretty hard. So it is usually more than 1 1/2" and I am constantly trimming it back while roughing in the piece. By the time I have the shape into the panel I will have it trimmed back to a 1/2''

The more material you leave, the more work you will have to do to the panel but you definately do not want to end up short on material.

To get the panel roughed in I mark some reference lines and work the pattern inside out. This is only if there is a lot of shape in the panel, I can see more this way. It might be a personal preference though.

After it is roughed in, I work the pattern from the top of the panel. I chase it to the pattern starting from one side and work to the other side.

I have also found it is easier to get the shape by hammering it to the pattern by the time I get to the wheel I am almost to a wash out pressure. You can move the metal a lot faster with a hammer than you could with the wheel. This is if it is a high crown panel. If it is a low crown panel I will be using the wheel more than a hammer.

In and out of arraignment

A flexible shape pattern will only give you the information on how much shape a panel has.

You will also need some contour gauges. The contour gauges will give you the arrangement of the panel.

You will not need them until you put the correct amount of shape into the panel. This is when you have your pattern fitting like a glove.

Then take the contour gauges and put the panel into its proper arrangement. You do this by pushing or pulling or what ever it takes to fit the panel to the contour gauges.

The most important thing

Trust the pattern
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is a pretty poor attempt at making a video. I also made a bad reference when I say bend it over your knee or roll it to fit the pattern. I don't know why I said it, but I did and I can't take it back. Those would be arrangement not shape

__________________
Johnny Arial

This forum is dedicated to Metal Shaping.
Please stay on topic.

Last edited by jhnarial; 04-29-2010 at 06:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-28-2010, 07:19 PM
abarthdave abarthdave is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: so cal
Posts: 235
Default

EDIT: Well I guess I should have read the above before posting , but I would still like to hear your ideas....

can you use duct tape in place of the fiberglass threaded shipping tape ?

Duct tape comes in larger rolls, is cheap and strong ,

I just do not know how it works if you are trying to turn it inside out to make the other side of something,

Dave
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-28-2010, 07:33 PM
Marty Comstock's Avatar
Marty Comstock Marty Comstock is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: East Herkimer NY
Posts: 1,570
Default

I like the narrower tape for anything tighter than a 12" radius.

I agree with the razorblade idea, much cleaner than a file.

Make the panel and FSP 1-2" larger than the panel you are trying to reproduce, this way you dont lose the shape in the tangent area of the edge.

Dont get bent about realigning it the same every time at first, it will foat around a bunch as you rough it in.

Dont overlap the tape if you are reproducing one part, but may consider it if you are going to be using it to make many parts. Over lap is stiffness, but also weakness. makes it harder to read.

You may want to reinforce problem areas, edges or bend lines. with another layer of tape.

Approach your first layer thinking just how you will peel it off, like said before you dont want it to delaminate.

I have had to use the green tape because of delamination problems on tight panels, like Johnny said, a dusting of powder will help kill the tape to the metal, but not to itself.

If delamination occurs, you can clean the powder and regain stickiness by wiping a lil lacquer thinner over the problem area. You can also tape two patterns together in the same fashion.

Marty
__________________
Results = (Effort X Determination2) + Time
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-28-2010, 07:42 PM
jhnarial's Avatar
jhnarial jhnarial is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Excelsior Springs Mo.
Posts: 2,836
Default

I do not think I would use regular duct tape but this tape is almost exactly like packing tape but instead of fiberglass strand it has cloth strands.

The pattern I show in the video is made from the duct tape I am talking about.

I was paying 8.99 for this 3m packing tape I liked. I think this tape is 6 bucks a roll.

I picked up a few ideas from what you just wrote Marty.

If anyone has any tips please add them.
__________________
Johnny Arial

This forum is dedicated to Metal Shaping.
Please stay on topic.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-28-2010, 08:31 PM
Kerry Pinkerton's Avatar
Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Near Huntsville, Alabama. Just south of the Tennessee line off I65
Posts: 8,321
Default

Duct tape stretches while fiberglas tape won't. I've LITERALLY pulled a car with fiberglas tape.

Rather than trimming the FSP tight to the edges with a knife or razor blade, I prefer to mark the first layer of tape with a Sharpie and trim it later. This gives me a 'handle' to grab when peeling the tape off. Also, since the fiberglas tape is translucent, you can see the lines throught it.

Also I punch three or four holes in an asymmetrical pattern in the FSP with a 1/4" hole punch or leather punch. This is if so you can make registrations marks on the panel with a sharpie and put the FSP in EXACTLY the same place every time. Note that as you continue to develop and refine the shape the registration marks will move so you'll need to refresh them frequently.
__________________
Kerry Pinkerton
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-28-2010, 08:44 PM
Marty Comstock's Avatar
Marty Comstock Marty Comstock is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: East Herkimer NY
Posts: 1,570
Default

This is an argument I have with dad, if they move (registration marks), and they WILL, why bother with them untill the last 10 percent?

I say this because I have seen folk try to get more shape in an area when roughing in trying to keep the marks aligned when all you had to do was shift the FSP a smidge to match the shape in the panel. I dont wanna see a beginner spend to much time on the details when it isnt needed at an early stage of learning or part devlopment.

Marty
__________________
Results = (Effort X Determination2) + Time
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-29-2010, 06:24 AM
jhnarial's Avatar
jhnarial jhnarial is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Excelsior Springs Mo.
Posts: 2,836
Default

I would say the last 30 percent. when you get about 3/16'' from fitting the pattern.
__________________
Johnny Arial

This forum is dedicated to Metal Shaping.
Please stay on topic.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-29-2010, 06:34 AM
Kerry Pinkerton's Avatar
Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Near Huntsville, Alabama. Just south of the Tennessee line off I65
Posts: 8,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Comstock View Post
This is an argument I have with dad, if they move (registration marks), and they WILL, why bother with them untill the last 10 percent?

I say this because I have seen folk try to get more shape in an area when roughing in trying to keep the marks aligned when all you had to do was shift the FSP a smidge to match the shape in the panel. I dont wanna see a beginner spend to much time on the details when it isnt needed at an early stage of learning or part devlopment.

Marty
You should know better than argue with your Dad...

The problem is that you can easily be chasing a moving target. Now that doesn't mean you should not see where the FSP best fits on the oversize blank. However, as you start to work specific areas you need to be consistent about where the FSP is placed...especially as you start trimming the excess off.

That said, sometimes you read the FSP and do something and the result isn't what you expected/wanted resulting in a new reality with the panel. Perfectly OK to do a best fit with the FSP and go from there.

I guess the reason I'd suggest new folks do it is to better understand how what they are doing to the panel effects it relative to what they WANT to do to it. I.E. stretching there did this....not that....hummm

That's my 3 cents worth anyway.
__________________
Kerry Pinkerton
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-29-2010, 07:36 AM
pro70z28's Avatar
pro70z28 pro70z28 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Coal City, IL
Posts: 142
Default

Being totally new to shaping I have a question about the FSP. Has anyone tried a spray on or brush on FSP? Is that even possible? I've done a fair amount of fiberglass work where a release agent is applied to the plug and a fiberglass mold is laid up & pulled off the panel. Is there a product out there that when it sets up will hold the shape but is still flexible? Sorta' like when they paint a face with a latex material, sets up, peal it off and you have an impression of the face. I don't know if such a product exists or if it would be more trouble than it's worth? Or too expensive? Just thinking out loud.
__________________
Gary Spear
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-29-2010, 08:12 AM
Kerry Pinkerton's Avatar
Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Near Huntsville, Alabama. Just south of the Tennessee line off I65
Posts: 8,321
Default

Gary, there was a guy in Europe...can't recall his name at the moment... that did a thin fiberglass layer and used it for an FSP. He swore by it in spite of some questions about it's flexibility. Never saw much more about it.

Keep in mind that these are intended to be rather temporary. They can last a long time but generally are only used a few times...generally. Tape is cheap and works well....especially for learning how to use them. I'd suggest that folks who want to master them start with something that is known to work and move on to experimentation after they've discovered the pros and cons of the tape version. Just my opinion.

Who knows what other products may be discovered that work better/cheaper/etc...time will tell.

And then there are those who don't even need or want FSPs because they use paper patters or wooden bucks or just great eyes and hands. But, that is the subject for another thread.
__________________
Kerry Pinkerton
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:45 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.