new member from london uk
 

hello I intend on making a mgb gt sebring replica. Fiberglass wings are widely available, however i intend to make them out of steel.

I am a hobbyist and hope to do this myself, I will be buying dvd's to help and possible do a short course, any course of one week or less would great, I know of contour autocraft, are there any more?

I have been luck to secure a cast ranalah machine, and have bought replacement rollers from hoosier profiles, and am looking for other well built antique machines, such as folders, rollers and swagers.

Regards

Welcome to Allemetalshaping JAG!

M.Johal, welcome, hope you find the site helpful and enjoyable. Thanks for joining us.

Contour Autocraft
 

I took the Contour Autocraft course...I HIGHLY recommend it. Those guys really know what they are doing and are GREAT teachers.

Welcome to Allmetalshaping.

Eckold UK run courses on the use of the english wheel, they will also do one day courses on any specific area of metalshaping you are having trouble with. If you search "english wheel" on ebay they normally advertise their courses on there. I haven't personally attended any of their courses so can't comment as to the quality of information.

I think you have come to the right place already to learn the craft. Start with smaller, less complicated projects and get stuck in. Any problems you encounter, take plenty of pictures and post on here. There is a multitude of extremely talented craftsman on this forum that would be pleased to point you in the right direction.

Another advantage is that you will often get multiple suggestions on how to fix your problem and you can select the one that you are most comfortable with. If you go on a course and get taught by one person you will only get one viewpoint on how to do something. One thing that you will realise quite quickly is that there is nearly always more than one way to shape metal and come up with the same end result. With experience you will be able to use the methods that best suit your abilities.

Neil

I like the idea of contour autocraft, but they are pricy, I suppose I'll just have to save up, I think that is Abit early I need to practice NY welding and basic fabrication first, I'm thinking a local college first to learn basic bodywork then on to traditional metal work like contours later.

Anyone know if I can use fiberglass wings as bucks, or will I have to make wooden ones instead?

I don't think you're going to want to beat on fiberglass like you can a wooden or fiberglas bondo buck. Work great for making patterns though.

Contour Autocraft
 

I went into Contour Autocraft as a total newbie...and came out five days later, able to TIG weld thin sheet metal and form sheet metal with hand tools and the wheeling machine (with three beautiful test pieces to show off my skills). To be honest with you, I think the guys who beat metal for a living had a tougher time in the course...they had to un-learn bad habits while they were trying to new ones.

I know it is a bit on the expensive side, but I really cannot say enough about these guys. They really know what they are doing with sheet metal and they are fabulous teachers. They teach you how to think about the metal to get the shape you want. They focus a lot on using basic hand tools, instead of a lot of complicated machinery. You get a great deal of one-on-one time while you are practicing skills.

I am not trying to push too hard, I understand that not everyone has the budget to afford this course, just just giving you the 'inside view' of someone who has been there and letting you know you won't regret that money spent, if you really want to learn metal shaping quickly.

You don't need any special skills to get a lot out of this class. OH...you do want to save up more than the price of admission, though...they sell some custom tools there--and you will want to take some of those tools home, once you have seen how well they work. Take a look at their website to see what tools they have to offer.

kev

Welcome to the site. I feel that if you have no experience in shaping metal you need to learn to walk before you can run. Making a wing is a big job on its own. Taking a course is all very good and I have taught vehicle restoration at Colchester Institute on and off for twenty years.(the original restoration course in the UK).

Using a wheeling machine is far from intuative and it is one thing to make a very small patch panel on a buck when you are being shown every step of the way. It is another to get a good understanding of how metal works when you shape it.

David

hi david i will be buying your highly respected dvd soon, do you think my task may be too optimistic?

i'd like to build my wheel arches my self but would it just be best to pay some one to do it properley, I dont really have time to practise for weeks on end.

Just trying to be realistic. What can i do after a 5 day course?

5-day course
 

I can show you exactly what to expect after a five-day course. These are the practice pieces I produced in the Contour Autocraft course in just five days. That is from a 'standing start.' Most of the other attendees were already amateur or professional panel beaters. I had not learned ANY of these skills prior to showing up for the course. I do tend to learn quickly, and not everyone made quite as much progress as I did. I certainly had a tough time wrapping my brain around the 'reverse.'

http://allmetalshaping.com/picture.p...pictureid=7736

Above is practice piece #1 with an inside and outside curve and raised flange, in preparation for adding a wire edge. We raised the flange and adjusted it to re-flatten the panel using just auto body hammers. We got this far on day one of the Contour Autocraft course.


http://allmetalshaping.com/picture.p...pictureid=7737

Above is practice piece #1 after the wire edge was placed. We completed this on the 2nd day of the Contour Autocraft course.


http://allmetalshaping.com/picture.p...pictureid=7735

Above is practice piece #2. We shaped this section of a Jaguar XK fender in three pieces, then TIG welded it together without filler, and finished for a perfect, invisible seam. This is the right-side fender (wing for those of you in the UK). We made these panels with 18 gauge steel and used galvanized wire for the wire edge at the wheel arch. "Up" in this picture is toward the front of the car and you see the right-side wheel arch closest to you. We completed the three panels and welded them on day 3 & 4 of the Contour Autocraft course.


http://allmetalshaping.com/picture.p...pictureid=7734

Above is another view of practice piece #2 in 18 gauge cold rolled steel. From this angle, you can see that we also learned a basic 'reverse.' This is positioned as if you were looking at it from the right-hand seat of the car.


http://allmetalshaping.com/picture.p...pictureid=7739

Above is practice Piece #3. We made this in just a couple of hours on the final day. Just a quick tutorial in aluminum after working in CRS all week. An aluminum dish/section of a sphere. Annealed, hammered to shape, then smoothed on the wheeling machine (English wheel in the US) (no forming, just planishing with the wheel).


http://allmetalshaping.com/picture.p...pictureid=7738

Above is just another view of practice piece #3.

So, in just five days, we learned an incredible number of skills...theory behind shaping metal, hammer forming cold-rolled steel and aluminum, theory and practice in using a wheeling machine, using a buck to measure your progress in forming, putting shape and reverses into a panel, TIG welding (without filler) to make larger panels. These three practice pieces incorporate a lot of different techniques. The cool thing is that we didn't really used a lot of large machines. They taught us primarily with hand tools, a wheeling machine, and a basic TIG inverter.

I look forward to seeing your skills develop...however you choose to proceed. I just wanted you to see that a metal shaping course CAN be an effective way to jump start your hobby.

Kev

Thats excellent work there, and a very informative post indeed.

Left to your own devices could replicate the xk wing again? I know with experts on hand it may seem easy. A bit like watch a DIY programme on TV. But these experts have had years of experience.

Years ago panel beating was a traditional 5 year apprentice course, all the teachers and anyone in England who has these skills would have done one.
So is it optimistic that they can transfer their skills base in a 5 day course?

May be i'm being negative, but i can see how i could need up giving up after creating flat steel into scrap metal. And spending a fortune getting there too!

5-day course
 

Jag,

I agree that there is a big difference between watching a DIY show and actually replicating those results in your own shop. Just like there is a big difference in watching the your maths professor (math teacher for those in the US) work a problem on the board and going home by yourself to work the problem.

That isn't what happened at Contour Autocraft. I did the work. Yes, the panels were pre-cut for us (but they do discuss how to create bucks and patterns on your own, or offer an advanced course to teach you those things in detail). Yes, the instructors were in the room to answer questions, but they did NOT do the work for you. I can honestly say that 3 years later, even though I have not done much metal shaping in the meantime, I still understand and know how to apply the principles they taught.

There are plenty of reminders around too. We got a notebook from the course (and I took copious notes while there). There are plenty of videos on y-tube for free. There are great resources in this forum. It's not like you won't have help after you leave the class.

As they like to say on these forums, "Your mileage may vary." I have a proven history of learning well and learning quickly. At the age of 30, I decided to learn something new every year. Four months into my guitar lessons, my instructor told me I should stop doing whatever I do for a living and start playing guitar for a living. Four months into learning to fly a small plane (while completing ground school by 'self study,' instead of in the classroom), I flew with the senior instructor before my solo. At my post-flight briefing, he told me that I should stop doing whatever I do for a living and start flying planes for a living. About five months after starting martial arts, I went to a national tournament and won a couple of trophies at my level. About a year and a half after deciding to really work on my gourmet cooking skills, I tried out for Masterchef Season 2 in the US and made it to the top 100 of all home cooks in the the entire nation.

Sure, not everyone in the Autocraft Course made the same level of progress. They did, however, go away with an understanding of how metal moves (more like a liquid, less like a solid). They definitely went away from the class understanding where to 'press' to make the metal move 'that' direction.

I suppose it all boils down to a question you have to answer for yourself...what do you want? A beautiful car at any cost or the satisfaction of handcrafting an object of beauty for yourself. Either way is fine. You don't have to work on your own car. There are plenty of people out there who enjoy beautiful cars they paid someone to create for them.

You don't really have to spend a fortune to do this. We did all of the forming in these projects with hammers, hand tools and a stump. We did use a wheeling machine (English wheel for those in the US) for planishing, but you CAN do that by hammer too. The DC TIG Inverter at Contour Autocraft is 360 GBP (around $580 US) and the welding techique they teach does not even need filler material. You don't need huge sheets of brand new sheet metal to practice with...find a scrap dealer near you who sells cutoffs from local shops (you only form small sections at a time anyway). A stump is literally dirt cheap.

Personally, I think you can do it. You have already shown an interest, or you wouldn't be here. There are plenty of resources available for you right here on this forum. I suspect there are members on this forum near you who might be willing to assist you, if you get stuck on a project. If not, I know there are plenty of people to help you along online, as long as you send us a photo and describe your problem.

You seem to be asking yourself, "Why should I do this?" I recommend changing that to, "How can I make this happen?" (look at my signature below...) Take the leap. Have some fun. If it really doesn't work for you, sell your tools and welder on c-list for almost what you paid for them and try something else. You will NOT have lost much and you WILL have gained a lot--met a bunch of nice folks who like to shape metal, learned a bit more about yourself, and increased your confidence level.

Kev

Hi Jag36928,

Don't get me wrong, the guys at Contour Autocraft are very skilled and the bodies they turn out are about the best XK bodies and panels you can buy. Taking a course for five days will give you a good grounding however as someone else pointed out it used to be a seven year apprenticeship to learn to be a 'wheeler' this did not include all the other skills. I really don't think it takes that long to learn in order to be fairly competent.

If you take a course you will still need to practice, this work is not something that you can learn quickly even if you are the best learner in the world.

I put a lot of info on my DVD, a lot more than I could teach in a week but you will need to practice! If you want to make the parts you will want to put in the effort and practice. If you just want to get someone else to do the work you will gain by having some knowledge of how things should be done and the possible results.

David

Kevin,

I have seen other people make the parts you made at Contour, they are the standard parts that are used as teaching aids on the course.
I see that where you wire edged the section of panel you used a hammer. This works for a section like that but how would you use this method on a complete wing where you can't swing a hammer? Were you shown any other method for closing the metal over the wire?
Were you shown how to stretch and shrink a flange if you don't have a machine?. Do you know how to fit a doorskin?.

Did you learn how to make accurate patterns for any sections you need?

I have heard good things about the Contour course and I know it is a good course but there is a lot more to this stuff than making simple small sections, a big part of the skill is making everything fit properly and getting a good finish with proper flowing lines. I read what I wrote and it sounds like I am picking on you but that is not what I intend to do and I don't mean to be rude. I just don't think you have a very good understanding of the craft as yet. See... even that sounds rude!.

David

I may have opened a can of worms here.

Perhaps this is just the difference in attitude between the uk and us.
The hot rod culture seems to encourage backyard type hobbyist to try stuff and many great machines built this way, but even professional shops seem to use industrial quantities of filler (bondo), where as in the uk this time served panel beater wheeler would have a flawless finish in metal. The hotrodder would put his hand to anything engine paint and other mechanicals too. A coachbuilder in the uk wouldn't imagine doing such things. The best body specialist i still believe are british, roach, rod jolley and vintage cars to name a few.

Perhaps we are too much of a perfectionist across the pond, where as the americans have a just do it attitude.

I'm very tempted to sell my wheel and use the proceeds to job properly, sad i know and perhaps sound defeatist. but it in reality sounds like the best real world solution.

Shaping metal is not something that you are going to learn in a short period of time. The TV shows have given a false impression that it can be learned by anyone over night. That just isn't going to happen. Before you can even get close the being good in this craft you have to be able to read the metal and understand what it is going to do when you hit it. Davids DVD is the best for showing how to work the metal with hand tools and teaching you some of the techniques used to make panels. If you don't already have it, buy it if use want a good teaching aid. If you don't learn how to shape metal with hand tools first it will take you longer to understand what it takes to make the metal move where you want it to go. Starting off with machines will allow you to make a lot of pretty scrap faster. Putting shape in a piece of metal is easy, making it fit something is not. It is very helpful to have someone show you the basics, taking a class or having a one on one session with someone that knows how to shape metal. Practice and patience are what you need to do next. You will make scrap, that is part of the learning process. If you are not willing to put in the time you will never learn to shape metal.

Good evening mr m.johal
 

Sorry i am disturbing you but you said you have a ranalah english wheel .i apologyse if i am asking do you know any other for sale i would like to buy one ore if posible please could you send me some pictures maybe i can cast one . I have some pictures but they are bad quality. I am located in london uk ,chalfont st peter so maybe i can come and see it if you dont mind.
Thank you very much !
Constantin

Hi mr david gardiner
 

I have your dvd and i can say that it is full with so much information .i watched it with a friend of mine and he could not belive it how much you can do with just few tolls .
It just incredible what you can do if you practice and have a passion for something.