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Old 11-26-2018, 09:09 PM
RB86 RB86 is offline
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Default One piece panels vs. multi piece

I'm curious, how often do you all make panels out of one piece? I've had a couple people tell me they can just make a fender out of one piece rather than multiples (think a bulbous late 30's style Packard/Cadillac fender).

I know it can be done, but at what point is it worth doing that to save time welding? Also, how do you know where it's best to separate into pieces before making them? I'm assuming you pick your lines on the center of the tightest radiuses.
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Old 11-26-2018, 09:45 PM
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Jack 1957 Jack 1957 is offline
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It's not easy to make a large panel by yourself, even if you have the skill. Manouvering carefully through the various machines can be difficult without a helper. I don't try because for me, it's quicker to make it in pieces.. I recently made rear fenders that were mostly very basic stuff but an area near the tail light was pretty complex. I couldn't imagine trying to finesse that rear corner in while swinging a 60" x 40" piece of 18 ga steel around. Also, if I had made scrap, it would be a LOT of scrap.
As you said, It can be done but sometimes its not practical even if you have the skills.
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Old 11-26-2018, 11:04 PM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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Back when I was doing the 101 seminar every few weeks, one of the things I said was that as you get more competent as a shaper, the more complex panel you can make in one piece. That doesn't mean that you should necessarily STRIVE to make a panel in one piece just because you know how. Welding panels is not shaping metal but it is a necessary part of being a metal shaper.

The ability to weld sheetmetal is a critical skill. Either gas or TIG or even MIG. Get good at it. Bad welding can make good panels look like crap and good welding can do the opposite.

When I first started my roadster, I was a crappy welder and a mediocre shaper. You can look at the first areas I made and see the progression of my skills compared to the later panels. Today, I'm not the least intimidated by making reverse curves or welding multiple panels into a single complex panel.
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Old 11-27-2018, 12:21 AM
RB86 RB86 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry Pinkerton View Post
Back when I was doing the 101 seminar every few weeks, one of the things I said was that as you get more competent as a shaper, the more complex panel you can make in one piece. That doesn't mean that you should necessarily STRIVE to make a panel in one piece just because you know how. Welding panels is not shaping metal but it is a necessary part of being a metal shaper.

The ability to weld sheetmetal is a critical skill. Either gas or TIG or even MIG. Get good at it. Bad welding can make good panels look like crap and good welding can do the opposite.

When I first started my roadster, I was a crappy welder and a mediocre shaper. You can look at the first areas I made and see the progression of my skills compared to the later panels. Today, I'm not the least intimidated by making reverse curves or welding multiple panels into a single complex panel.

Kerry I'm self taught on mig, and I just began tigging. Both my machines are Hobart and I love them. Tig has been fantastic. Makes more sense to me than I expected it to, as many say it's a difficult learning experience.

I have yet to try gas welding but I'm curious how it compares to Tig. Seems that the heat effected zone is rather large.
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Old 11-27-2018, 12:25 AM
RB86 RB86 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jack 1957 View Post
It's not easy to make a large panel by yourself, even if you have the skill. Manouvering carefully through the various machines can be difficult without a helper. I don't try because for me, it's quicker to make it in pieces.. I recently made rear fenders that were mostly very basic stuff but an area near the tail light was pretty complex. I couldn't imagine trying to finesse that rear corner in while swinging a 60" x 40" piece of 18 ga steel around. Also, if I had made scrap, it would be a LOT of scrap.
As you said, It can be done but sometimes its not practical even if you have the skills.
Thanks Jack. Yeah I've found even medium sized panels are hard to keep the weight under control on the wheel by yourself. They relax and pull down
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Old 11-27-2018, 05:03 AM
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Most wrap fenders or Guards will be multiple pieces, whilst simple flat shapes will be done in 1 piece so long as the operator is confident in doing it one piece.
Depending on the complexity, Size, Shape and form of the panel, as well as equipment available for use will all depend on how many pieces,

I have tried to do panels in one, where my ambition far outweighs my skill level, only to struggle, but! I will at least have a go.
So now I break it up, How long will it take to make in one or the ease of fabbing multiple pieces to make one panel. (The later often wins out in time taken stakes)
I find using Paper patterns is the angel in this decision.
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Old 11-27-2018, 08:44 AM
Peter Tommasini Peter Tommasini is offline
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When making panels either 1/2/ 3/ or more pieces, one need to consider the time involved in..... patterns for each panel, cutting each blank, shaping each blank then fitting each pieces on a buck, measuring, cutting each panel again to suit, tack and then finally weld it on ..then... DISTORTION .. So that needs to be fixed ...... then ..filed.... And then hope that all your measuring and cutting was RIGHT ! If not... more work in stretching or shrinking would be needed

So you balance all of that, and decide if the time in doing it in one piece or several is for you .....HAVING SAID THAT.... not all panels can be done in one piece simply because of their shape, or their weight, or can not be done by one operator only, without a helper
So use your expertise to work out a way that suit you
Peter
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Old 11-27-2018, 01:31 PM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
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Default One large panel or more, smaller panels ??

When I teach panel working I mention the old axiom:
"It's going to be either a little shaping and a lot of welding or a lot of shaping and a little welding."
I have helped out on many projects where the guys were learning, and so they started as apprentices do, by making small panels, and I have welded them all together and planished them out for the job to proceed, so they could see. Education has to happen for the craft to continue.

It may be helpful to know that Scaglietti started doing panel shaping when he worked for Alfa in the early 1930's, and started doing the mudguards/mud shields/stone shields. Carozzeria Scaglietti started after WW2, eventually making nearly all of the competition Ferraris for decades, after about 1956 and until Ferrari bought Scaglietti's coachbuilding company in 1985.

Starting the apprentices on small interior or exterior panels has always been the practice in the shops, no matter what country. Some craftsmen graduate to larger and complex panels quickly, while others stay with small panels.

Further, some 4-6 year craftsmen will make a first hood skin, say in four panels. Then with that practice under the belt, go on to make the same hood skin in halves, and instead, use that welded two-piece panel on the job. This example also just happened (again) in the past few weeks with a student of mine, and he is making good strides as a craftsman.

It is sometimes educational to guess at how a coachbuilder made a given panel, and then get a look at the back side to see it was made - sometimes much differently than first guessed. I have been educated several times with this little game of mine.

Personally, I have worked on well over two hundred restorations, so far, and most of them on coachbuilt cars, handbuilt competition cars and also handmade vintage aircraft. I have also restored prototypes, serial # 0001. I have seen the manufacturing process on these prototypes go gradually from small panels to larger (handmade) panels, over the first half-dozen or few dozen units. What may be convenient today may not be exactly so convenient next Wednesday.
My own personal experience: I worked one time with a skilled craftsman of many years, and he had made up a good number of vintage racing airplanes, from parts. He asked me if I would make a given complicated panel out of one piece or out of a few welded pieces. My response to him was that I would probably make and weld it from three pieces, at which he threw up his arms and exclaimed in an exasperated voice, "But for you, welding is a non-event!!"
I've seen a lot of vintage handmade metalwork from 1908 to 1978, and I've seen the work vary on a given job because of different craftsmen and their varying approaches.
Sometimes it is fun for me to duplicate panel work exactly, on a bare aluminum car or a polished airplane, just to see my own work "disappear" into a lovely vintage example of metalworking.

One of my students told me a couple of years back that his grandfather had worked at Pierce Arrow doing body work for a long time, and in the mid-1930's made one front fender from a one-piece sheet of metal.
So, you can see that there are "big panel" guys and "small, multiple panel" guys who have been doing this work for a long time, now.

It is a personal challenge to take a craft to a particular level,while growing into that level of craftsmanship.
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Old 11-27-2018, 03:19 PM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RB86 View Post
...I have yet to try gas welding but I'm curious how it compares to Tig. Seems that the heat effected zone is rather large.
TIG and OA welding is simple and I can describe the process in one two phrase sentence:

Just BEFORE the puddle hits the floor, move the heat!

Seriously, that is it. The trick is knowing when 'before' is. I find OA welding and TIG very similar on steel. It's all about puddle management. Now aluminum is a whole different thing. I have Kent's fancy TM2000 glasses and I still have trouble seeing the puddle until it hits the floor.

The whole TIG vs OA debate is a holy war on par with true radius or contact flats, or Ewheel or power hammer, or..........

Obviously, TIG is the newcomer to the party so the traditionalists swear by OA because they mastered it early on. I agree that OA produces a superior weld, softer, and more malleable. That said, there are some really high end coach builders that do beautiful work with TIG. And some folks do both. Many restorations have to be done the way the original was done which usually means OA.

There is no answer. People swear by and teach what they were taught and learned and, most importantly, what works for them. You should do the same. Experiment and decide which approach works best for you and master it.

When I got my Miller Dynasty, Dutch Comstock tried it and said "That's cheating." He was comparing it to his big copper coil Syncro 300 vs the Dynasty inverter. He later told me that the difference in a TIG welder and a GOOD TIG welder was about 2000 hours. I suspect the same is true of OA welding and, at 70, I won't live long enough to master either. I'm comfortable with TIG even if I have to file more that I'd like to. I'm a good filer.

Having said all that, if I were a young man just starting out, I'd probably go the OA route for both steel and aluminum. Once you master that, TIG is easy. Get a good torch. You won't go wrong with one of Kent's Meco's.
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Old 11-28-2018, 09:48 AM
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Anyone leak testing a motorcycle gas tank that was tig welded will soon find OA is the better choice.
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