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Old 04-14-2019, 10:31 PM
RB86 RB86 is offline
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Default General Metal Shaping questions I have

Hey everyone.

As I encounter different metal shaping scenarios, or just spend time thinking about metal shaping, I come up with questions and have started to make note of them to discuss here on the forum. Forgive me if theyre all over the map, I just figured it might be better to have one thread rather than many.

So, if youre so inclined, I'm all ears for any answers you might come up with.

1.) How to recognize shape versus form. Would it be safe to say that form is simply any time you can fold over an edge or pipe to achieve a NON compound radius? Are there other scenarios for form?

2.) When you are hammering on a stump, I've noticed people having various depths of recesses cut out on the stump. Is it better to have a deeper recess, or when you're putting in shape and tipping a panel, is it more effective to initiate the bend by hitting it over a shallow recess, and then begin to turn the panel upright (as opposed to smashing into a deeper recess to really stretch out a panel).

3.) You've seen speed blisters on hot rods. How do you ensure that the tipped flange lands exactly where you need it to? Keep in mind there is no paper pattern to make because those types of panels dont exist on the particular car yet, its a clearance panel needed, so the only information you get is where your flange needs to land on the body - the outline. I suppose a hammer form would be pretty simple, but what if its a more complex piece and you need to hammer out shape, then tip the edge? I recently encountered this, but want to strengthen my understanding. (I hope this question isnt too confusing - I can provide pictures if so).

4.) Having a high or low spot/area and overcoming it on the english wheel. I realize if its a really small spot, the wheel itself basically planishes it out, but if its a hump and needs to be blended, I see guys lift the panel into the upper wheel, or sometimes pull the panel downward into the lower anvil. I want to understand that better. I had a situation with a low area in a compound curve and no amount of wheeling seemed to blend it out (chaulk it up to lack of user knowledge and/or cheap english wheel). I can provide pictures if necessary.

5.) The dreaded corner shape! I've encountered this need a fair amount lately. Tons of tuck shrinking, and stretching out the bottom of the corner until the arms are tired. Is it more effective to have several large, deep tucks, or is it more effective to go around the corner area and have more continuous shorter, shallower tucks? This also plays into my previous question with the shallow vs deep recess in a stump - imagine two same corners - one was achieved by smashing and really stretching out the inside of the corner to get depth, and the other got depth by tipping up the walls so to speak and using lots of smaller tucks around the top corner edge. Perhaps you might call that one more form than shape?

6.) Final question (so far ) You ever see in 30's cars how the headlight bucket seamlessly blends into a fender? I am all about learning how to make headlight bucket shapes, and then tipping the edge so they can be welded and metal finished in surrounding areas as opposed to in the joint (although I have seen some fantastic results with those miniature belt sanders they sell nowadays). This same shape scenario applies to some dashes I've seen (as well as the radio body project I posted on here). A great dash example - look up a 1949 Buick dash. Just gorgeous. There is a seam around the speedo bezel, but lets pretend thats seamless.

As I said before - sorry that these questions are all over the map. Theyre just things Ive been thinking about and would like to discuss with the other metal heads here. If one of these topics appeals to you, I'm all ears. Thanks
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1950 Cadillac
1956 Cadillac
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Last edited by RB86; 04-14-2019 at 10:50 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-15-2019, 12:12 AM
Peter Tommasini Peter Tommasini is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RB86 View Post
Hey everyone.

As I encounter different metal shaping scenarios, or just spend time thinking about metal shaping, I come up with questions and have started to make note of them to discuss here on the forum. Forgive me if theyre all over the map, I just figured it might be better to have one thread rather than many.

So, if youre so inclined, I'm all ears for any answers you might come up with.

1.) How to recognize shape versus form. Would it be safe to say that form is simply any time you can fold over an edge or pipe to achieve a NON compound radius? Are there other scenarios for form?

2.) When you are hammering on a stump, I've noticed people having various depths of recesses cut out on the stump. Is it better to have a deeper recess, or when you're putting in shape and tipping a panel, is it more effective to initiate the bend by hitting it over a shallow recess, and then begin to turn the panel upright (as opposed to smashing into a deeper recess to really stretch out a panel).

3.) You've seen speed blisters on hot rods. How do you ensure that the tipped flange lands exactly where you need it to? Keep in mind there is no paper pattern to make because those types of panels dont exist on the particular car yet, its a clearance panel needed, so the only information you get is where your flange needs to land on the body - the outline. I suppose a hammer form would be pretty simple, but what if its a more complex piece and you need to hammer out shape, then tip the edge? I recently encountered this, but want to strengthen my understanding. (I hope this question isnt too confusing - I can provide pictures if so).

4.) Having a high or low spot/area and overcoming it on the english wheel. I realize if its a really small spot, the wheel itself basically planishes it out, but if its a hump and needs to be blended, I see guys lift the panel into the upper wheel, or sometimes pull the panel downward into the lower anvil. I want to understand that better. I had a situation with a low area in a compound curve and no amount of wheeling seemed to blend it out (chaulk it up to lack of user knowledge and/or cheap english wheel). I can provide pictures if necessary.

5.) The dreaded corner shape! I've encountered this need a fair amount lately. Tons of tuck shrinking, and stretching out the bottom of the corner until the arms are tired. Is it more effective to have several large, deep tucks, or is it more effective to go around the corner area and have more continuous shorter, shallower tucks? This also plays into my previous question with the shallow vs deep recess in a stump - imagine two same corners - one was achieved by smashing and really stretching out the inside of the corner to get depth, and the other got depth by tipping up the walls so to speak and using lots of smaller tucks around the top corner edge. Perhaps you might call that one more form than shape?

6.) Final question (so far ) You ever see in 30's cars how the headlight bucket seamlessly blends into a fender? I am all about learning how to make headlight bucket shapes, and then tipping the edge so they can be welded and metal finished in surrounding areas as opposed to in the joint (although I have seen some fantastic results with those miniature belt sanders they sell nowadays). This same shape scenario applies to some dashes I've seen (as well as the radio body project I posted on here). A great dash example - look up a 1949 Buick dash. Just gorgeous. There is a seam around the speedo bezel, but lets pretend thats seamless.

As I said before - sorry that these questions are all over the map. Theyre just things Ive been thinking about and would like to discuss with the other metal heads here. If one of these topics appeals to you, I'm all ears. Thanks
Rob
All of your questions are good ,interesting and valuable. When I was learning I was told to look and ask question, and not be afraid to do so, because they told me [Quote].... there is no such thing as a stupid question when it comes to Metalshaping

So ..my answer to all your question would be...Take a class (or several ) with some one that knows their stuff, and there are quite a few in the US, try to work on the things that you mentioned above, so your questions are answered , I am sure that you will learn even more while you are going through those questions and subjects

You see it's hard to explain from one end of the World and understand from the other ,simply because there are many many ways to do a job and some are correct and some might not be. Also some interpretation could be mistaken from one person to another or.. The same theory might be used, but a different approach is needed, different tools or machines can also be a factor as well etc... by taking a class you will be there to see it done, you can then ask the relevant question ,then if it works for you simply practice it, by doing this you will learn all types of theory's and approaches and ways to do certain jobs. All you need to do is to practice them

The important thing here is to learn (vision of shapes) , understand the shape, what each shapes needs, and more important to know what is going to happened to the metal while you working on it, and how to fix any problems when they occur.....And that my friend comes with practice!
Find below some examples of the same principals but different approaches when hand making a quarter panel or a mudguard in several pieces, or one piece. (that is up to the worker experience and skills, also $$ and time allowed is also important to do the job)
Peter

SAM_4212.jpg

SAM_4215.jpg

IMG_20120502_135135.jpg

IMG_20111124_135211.jpg

IMG_20120319_150418.jpg

IMG_20120831_113801[1].jpg

SAM_0511.jpg

SAM_0485.jpg

SAM_3628.jpg

SAM_3630.jpg

SDC10250.jpg
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Metalshaping tools and dvds
www.handbuilt.net.au

Metalshaping clip on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEAh91hodPg

Making Monaro Quarter panel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIpOhz0uGRM

Last edited by Peter Tommasini; 04-15-2019 at 07:31 AM.
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  #3  
Old 04-15-2019, 12:29 AM
James. V. D. W James. V. D. W is offline
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Taking a class is some very good advice. I always had the theory in my head, but it was only after taking a class with Barry that it all started coming together. There is almost always more than one way to to achieve a specific result and I would sometimes change my approach mid way through to achieve the end result. It is only when you physically do things that you truly get a feel for what works, and what doesn't.
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Old 04-15-2019, 08:11 AM
cliffrod cliffrod is offline
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Hey Robb. I'm not much different than you. still learning but these little things have helped

Quote:
Originally Posted by RB86 View Post

2.) When you are hammering on a stump, I've noticed people having various depths of recesses cut out on the stump. Is it better to have a deeper recess, or when you're putting in shape and tipping a panel, is it more effective to initiate the bend by hitting it over a shallow recess, and then begin to turn the panel upright (as opposed to smashing into a deeper recess to really stretch out a panel).
During this renaissance of metal craft, there's been a lot of romantic new ideas introduced that may or may not be good imho. So I study images of how the old Masters work, including their workshops & tools. Peter's methods made a big impression upon me. That includes his stump. His faded horseshoe recess is more often used for initiating tucks than making hollowed shapes. I know from stone work (which also suffers from too much modern romance vs actual working methods) that many untrained persons think you need a specific chisel shape to make a specific chisel cut. In most real world professional cases, that's not how it's done. You would need thousands of chisels. Sometimes a specific shape is needed. Usually you just exploit what's already being used. Novices have a million wonky chisels to be used once and never be found again.

Correspondingly, if you're making multiple duplicate parts you may want a specific hollow or hammerform. Otherwise, stretching into a shot or sand bag is better. The shape created will be smoother because of the support of the shot/sand.

Peter's stump approach also uses a wandering natural edge (not basic round) with both rounded and square transitions from horizontal to vertical. These provide a huge array of options, including for tipping edges and resolving flanges. Look at other old workshop pics and their stumps are also generally like this- not just round like plain cordwood except for some where the worker is on station doing only specific shapes. They used actual stumps, hence the name. Those old stumps didn't usually have 3-4 scooped out hollows, either....


Quote:
3.) You've seen speed blisters on hot rods. How do you ensure that the tipped flange lands exactly where you need it to? Keep in mind there is no paper pattern to make because those types of panels dont exist on the particular car yet, its a clearance panel needed, so the only information you get is where your flange needs to land on the body - the outline. I suppose a hammer form would be pretty simple, but what if its a more complex piece and you need to hammer out shape, then tip the edge? I recently encountered this, but want to strengthen my understanding. (I hope this question isnt too confusing - I can provide pictures if so).
It's hard to fake a straight line or flat surface. If I was doing a blister for a complicated surface register, I would bend or shape the metal to lay flat as desired on that surface first and then slowly stretch the blister while maintaining the desired surface. Maybe this is not how others would do it, but know how important it is (for me) to keep some non-changing reference throughout a project. Trying to chase too many targets all at once rarely ends well on purpose, do don't surrender or give up what you can control. It is how I was trained, so it is now I approach metal work as well.


Quote:

4.) Having a high or low spot/area and overcoming it on the english wheel. I realize if its a really small spot, the wheel itself basically planishes it out, but if its a hump and needs to be blended, I see guys lift the panel into the upper wheel, or sometimes pull the panel downward into the lower anvil. I want to understand that better. I had a situation with a low area in a compound curve and no amount of wheeling seemed to blend it out (chaulk it up to lack of user knowledge and/or cheap english wheel). I can provide pictures if necessary.
Come over to my place and you can make scrap on a fancy English wheel instead, just like me.. Still practicing here and wishing there was a short cut but I don't think there is.

Quote:
5.) The dreaded corner shape! I've encountered this need a fair amount lately. Tons of tuck shrinking, and stretching out the bottom of the corner until the arms are tired. Is it more effective to have several large, deep tucks, or is it more effective to go around the corner area and have more continuous shorter, shallower tucks? This also plays into my previous question with the shallow vs deep recess in a stump - imagine two same corners - one was achieved by smashing and really stretching out the inside of the corner to get depth, and the other got depth by tipping up the walls so to speak and using lots of smaller tucks around the top corner edge. Perhaps you might call that one more form than shape?
Divide and conquer. Some Masters here can make a shape from one piece or multiple pieces at will. The rest of us will aspire toward such things. Until we're good enough, multiple pieces are probably our only solution. Those same Masters might even tell you "sure, I can make it from one piece but it's faster to do it in several pieces & weld it up..."

Quote:

6.) Final question (so far ) You ever see in 30's cars how the headlight bucket seamlessly blends into a fender? I am all about learning how to make headlight bucket shapes, and then tipping the edge so they can be welded and metal finished in surrounding areas as opposed to in the joint (although I have seen some fantastic results with those miniature belt sanders they sell nowadays). This same shape scenario applies to some dashes I've seen (as well as the radio body project I posted on here). A great dash example - look up a 1949 Buick dash. Just gorgeous. There is a seam around the speedo bezel, but lets pretend thats seamless.
Back to divide and conquer. Me? I would rethink the seams, patterns and maybe the number of pieces on your radio project. Dividing shapes into smaller pieces makes them less dramatic & usually easier to achieve. One of my favorite stone carving advice/suggestions is that smaller pieces are smaller mistakes. It works the same in metal. The better you get, the more monolithic your work can become to demonstrate your achievement. Otherwise, simply learn to succeed first.

I'm confident others will correct my ignorant views. Until then, I hope this helps. See ya, man.
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  #5  
Old 04-15-2019, 08:12 AM
RB86 RB86 is offline
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Thank you guys for the responses. RockHillWill recently invited me to join him for a metal meet with some seriously talented people in Minnesota, but unfortunately being self employed I just can't get away for a week right now. All things in good time I suppose.

Will and I have plans to make an aluminum 32 Ford front fender at his place when time allows. Looking forward to that!

Anyway, thanks and I hope we can keep this discussion going. In the meantime I'll be out there making scrap when I can
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Old 04-15-2019, 08:29 AM
RB86 RB86 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffrod View Post
Hey Robb. I'm not much different than you. still learning but these little things have helped



During this renaissance of metal craft, there's been a lot of romantic new ideas introduced that may or may not be good imho. So I study images of how the old Masters work, including their workshops & tools. Peter's methods made a big impression upon me. That includes his stump. His faded horseshoe recess is more often used for initiating tucks than making hollowed shapes. I know from stone work (which also suffers from too much modern romance vs actual working methods) that many untrained persons think you need a specific chisel shape to make a specific chisel cut. In most real world professional cases, that's not how it's done. You would need thousands of chisels. Sometimes a specific shape is needed. Usually you just exploit what's already being used. Novices have a million wonky chisels to be used once and never be found again.

Correspondingly, if you're making multiple duplicate parts you may want a specific hollow or hammerform. Otherwise, stretching into a shot or sand bag is better. The shape created will be smoother because of the support of the shot/sand.

Peter's stump approach also uses a wandering natural edge (not basic round) with both rounded and square transitions from horizontal to vertical. These provide a huge array of options, including for tipping edges and resolving flanges. Look at other old workshop pics and their stumps are also generally like this- not just round like plain cordwood except for some where the worker is on station doing only specific shapes. They used actual stumps, hence the name. Those old stumps didn't usually have 3-4 scooped out hollows, either....




It's hard to fake a straight line or flat surface. If I was doing a blister for a complicated surface register, I would bend or shape the metal to lay flat as desired on that surface first and then slowly stretch the blister while maintaining the desired surface. Maybe this is not how others would do it, but know how important it is (for me) to keep some non-changing reference throughout a project. Trying to chase too many targets all at once rarely ends well on purpose, do don't surrender or give up what you can control. It is how I was trained, so it is now I approach metal work as well.




Come over to my place and you can make scrap on a fancy English wheel instead, just like me.. Still practicing here and wishing there was a short cut but I don't think there is.



Divide and conquer. Some Masters here can make a shape from one piece or multiple pieces at will. The rest of us will aspire toward such things. Until we're good enough, multiple pieces are probably our only solution. Those same Masters might even tell you "sure, I can make it from one piece but it's faster to do it in several pieces & weld it up..."



Back to divide and conquer. Me? I would rethink the seams, patterns and maybe the number of pieces on your radio project. Dividing shapes into smaller pieces makes them less dramatic & usually easier to achieve. One of my favorite stone carving advice/suggestions is that smaller pieces are smaller mistakes. It works the same in metal. The better you get, the more monolithic your work can become to demonstrate your achievement. Otherwise, simply learn to succeed first.

I'm confident others will correct my ignorant views. Until then, I hope this helps. See ya, man.
Hey Clint, thanks for a your input! I think it's so cool to have the stone background to draw from. "Don't surrender or give up what you can control" in reference to the blister/flange shape. Here's whats so interesting about it. I worked both from inputting the main shape first, followed by tipping the flange, AND I ALSO made another piece starting with the flange first, then working into the shape.

Here's where it gets tricky/fun - the metal tension changes as shape is added - and this applies on either side of the tipped edge. So, knowing from when I started putting shape in - blocking hammer smash into a sandbag - a tuck is formed outward. On one effort when starting with the flange outline and working inward, I pre-stretched the flange area before adding shape inboard. Basically hammer and dollied the hell out of it. Then once I started shaping inboard of the tip line, the metal had enough relaxed material that it wouldn't bunch up into a natural tuck. Keeps the flange line where I wanted it.

Ultimately, I followed peters advice in forming the metal first, then tipping the edge and this got me really close to what I needed in terms of actual shape.
Top left photo was ultimately what I used which Peter gave ideas on, and the top right was the one starting with the flange area and pre-stretching it. I think that would've worked as well, however it takes about 10,000 more hammer hits
IMG_20190403_230830_343.jpg
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  #7  
Old 04-15-2019, 10:18 AM
blue62 blue62 is offline
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Rob,
I am a novice just like you. I think your thread is a great one.
Like you I spend a lot of time bashing metal and trying to understand what is really happening. I have never been to a workshop or class.
What I do have is all of Peter's DVD's I have watched them multiple times.
What I think I see is that there are a few basic principles that are applied in many different ways over a wide spectrum. I think I see that when Peter does the door jamb on the Manaro quarter all he is doing is shrinking or stretching. I think he does just about everything by just shrinking and or stretching. It is where,when,and how he does it that gives him the results he is looking for. Lately I have begun to see that shrinking is not just shrinking, when I use a tucking tool I think I get a different shrink then the shrink effect I get with the hammer and stump. Stretching is not just stretching I think I get a different stretch effect depending on if I use blocking hammer and a hollow in the stump or blocking hammer and sand bag. They both seem to be radial stretches. The stretch on the bag seems to draw the surrounding metal with it. Stretching on the stump doesn't seem to draw much surrounding metal with it. Then there is the stretch on the e-wheel which seems to be mostly linear. I also think I see that when I shrink or stretch the metal it (as you stated) changes the tension in the metal. If You and I can figure out how to use these few basic principles we may begin to learn.
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:23 AM
fciron fciron is offline
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Question one: there is more to form than just simple curves. In metalshaping "form" refers to changes that are made without any shrinking or stretching. You'll often see people pushing, pulling, or twisting a panel after they work it b in a wheel or power hammer, they are manipulating the form to makes it fit. It is sometimes useful to to change the form to access parts of a panel that might be otherwise hard to reach. It can then be formed back after its been shaped.

Recognizing the difference between form and shape is essential to figuring out your next step.
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Last edited by fciron; 04-24-2019 at 04:09 AM.
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Old 04-21-2019, 10:45 PM
RB86 RB86 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fciron View Post
Question one: there is more to form than just simple curves. In metalshaping "form" refers to changes that are made without any shrinking or stretching. You'll often see people pushing, pulling, or twisting a panel after they work it b in a wheel or power hammer, they are manipulating the form to makes it for. It is sometimes useful to to change the form to access posts of a panel that might be otherwise hard to reach. It can then be formed back after its been shaped.

Recognizing the difference between form and shape is essential to figuring out your next step.
Good points. I've heard Wray schelin talk about changing the arrangement of a panel for that. Thank you
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