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  #11  
Old 04-26-2020, 08:18 PM
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drivejunk drivejunk is offline
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Valuable insights there, thank you both. Working in stone as a hobby trial would be fascinating for me.

Chris it is exactly that last ten percent I speak of. And I am content.

What I gather from these thoughtful responses is that it does vary as widely as I suspect.

The customer and I just haven't met yet who is willing to take that plunge. I can only do what I get asked for, with the facility and equipment there. I believe that had I done some fill free repairs on my own and were asked to do anything more than oh, say a foot across... I would probably still not want that commitment.

However, if it appears in my stall I won't back down from it. The requested project, that is. I just learn so much each day as it is, by doing, and shaping is a small percentage of that. But it is getting easier. Sloooowly. Don't take that wrong though, I mean like cranked down to nine from ten on the scale of struggles.
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Old 04-27-2020, 06:59 AM
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If someone could show me some examples of filler-free antique auto repair work they have done, then say what was charged for it, I could figure out the rest and decide for myself if it is a worthy pursuit. For the record, my goal is not to open my own business and I am glad my boss (theres only one) is my boss. We are quite successful and I am in my tenth year there. Our friendship has existed for a quarter century and I'd rather be percieved as the bad guy myself than to stand quietly by while he is.

Speculation about where my intentions lie is usually wrong, especially here. It didn't seem like a quagmire question, asking how much to fill a gas hole with or without bondo. Why must life coaching be injected into such a simple question?

So just never mind, guys. You can't help. I will continue being skeptical about any claims of no filler required and doing the best work I know how, and learning from each challenge as best I can.

What I just learned is not to ask tough questions in the interest of advancement.
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Old 04-27-2020, 07:02 AM
cliffrod cliffrod is offline
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Originally Posted by drivejunk View Post
Valuable insights there, thank you both. Working in stone as a hobby trial would be fascinating for me.

Chris it is exactly that last ten percent I speak of. And I am content.

What I gather from these thoughtful responses is that it does vary as widely as I suspect.

The customer and I just haven't met yet who is willing to take that plunge. I can only do what I get asked for, with the facility and equipment there. I believe that had I done some fill free repairs on my own and were asked to do anything more than oh, say a foot across... I would probably still not want that commitment.

However, if it appears in my stall I won't back down from it. The requested project, that is. I just learn so much each day as it is, by doing, and shaping is a small percentage of that. But it is getting easier. Sloooowly. Don't take that wrong though, I mean like cranked down to nine from ten on the scale of struggles.
The hobby perspective is the issue. What I do (and what you seek to do) isn't comparable to hobby work, as people who visit & dream quickly realize. There's a little comparison between doing a disposable practice coupon or simple metal shape vs doing the same thing within an auto body, just like there's a huge difference between some abstract ?? "art" and an accurate patron-approved composition being produced/reproduced within already completed work. It's also difficult to learn within a hobby perspective and transition into a professional environment. Hobbyists have to unlearn bad habits and replace them with profitable efficiency before they go broke or alienate clientele. It can be done but not by everyone.

I have to bid work accurately, in terms of labor hours, before any commitment is made. Simple work is quoted at a certain hourly rate of completion. Complicated work may be 3x-4x the same price, based upon that last small amount of project consuming vastly more labor and risk to achieve. An overhead amount, including hourly consumable cost, has to be part of your pricing. Lots of notes means I can bid accurately and quickly in writing. A $$number is not just chosen at random like many imagine.

Companies I work with operate under the same fashion. Years of data means we can evaluate a proposal, provide a firm price in writing and produce the work on a reasonably dependable schedule. Other professionals- from the manufacturers to the foundry- all use the same approach. There is no "blank check" or running tab, only sticker shock. Selling the work is the challenge, not doing it or making money while doing it. The alternative is the predictable pitfall of over-budget running tab or failed underbid projects- many of which that later come to a professional like me who doesn't sugarcoat things.

Simple example- If a nearby competitor is able to produce 1 foot of weld on a panel & fully metal finished in 1 HR vs you doing it in 3 hrs, you can only charge a price roughly equivalent to his 1 HR price to be viable in the market. You'll improve or you'll starve. Early jobs will cost you money to learn. That's why it's hard to compete against the professionals.
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  #14  
Old 04-27-2020, 07:09 AM
cliffrod cliffrod is offline
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If someone could show me some examples of filler-free antique auto repair work they have done, then say what was charged for it, I could figure out the rest and decide for myself if it is a worthy pursuit. For the record, my goal is not to open my own business and I am glad my boss (theres only one) is my boss. We are quite successful and I am in my tenth year there. Our friendship has existed for a quarter century and I'd rather be percieved as the bad guy myself than to stand quietly by while he is.

Speculation about where my intentions lie is usually wrong, especially here. It didn't seem like a quagmire question, asking how much to fill a gas hole with or without bondo. Why must life coaching be injected into such a simple question?

So just never mind, guys. You can't help. I will continue being skeptical about any claims of no filler required and doing the best work I know how, and learning from each challenge as best I can.

What I just learned is not to ask tough questions in the interest of advancement.
It's also important to find equity where you are. As an executive chef, I can make a very good cheeseburger. But if I'm working at McDonalds, people offering a Big Mac for $3.00 don't want anything else. I need to make a Big Mac exactly like the customer expects or find another kitchen. The venue can matter as much as the product.
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  #15  
Old 04-27-2020, 07:29 AM
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This is why I seek examples. I know my boss doesn't have any. One reason I / we have had such success is the presence of abundant documentation. Logging time spent and taking pics is a very important part of my job. We don't give quotes but have ample experiences as precedent for just about everything. Except no bondo. As to your example, for reference, I can meet or beat that foot per hour in most situations. We do OK. I understand me saying that doesn't prove a thing. I just want a small sample of what this type of work is worth, relative to work with fill.
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  #16  
Old 04-27-2020, 07:39 AM
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Cliffrod, I think you may have hit the nail on the head with your very first sentence today. I run into that everywhere I ask stuff. The fact is, each of us is on our own island so to speak. Theres no forum for pros. I do not envy you having to pin down numbers. Such is my worst nightmare. Fortunately, rodders are generally a fairly understanding lot, about bodywork. And happy... man we get to see so many smiles from customers that it is hard to keep in mind that the whole deal is like walking a tightrope.

Off I must go now, its hands-on time.
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  #17  
Old 04-27-2020, 12:59 PM
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It's also important to find equity where you are. As an executive chef, I can make a very good cheeseburger. But if I'm working at McDonalds, people offering a Big Mac for $3.00 don't want anything else. I need to make a Big Mac exactly like the customer expects or find another kitchen. The venue can matter as much as the product.
To carry the restaurant analogy a little further -- for the most part the food coming in the back door is the same, It's how it is prepared that determines what the final product is like. Most fast food is prepared by just going though the motions.
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  #18  
Old 04-27-2020, 02:19 PM
Chris_Hamilton Chris_Hamilton is offline
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Still maintain that in this Business if you try to give estimates you are going to go broke sooner rather than later. I know that from my own personal experience and from that of others I know.

Yes there are levels but let's face it, it's not the same as a Maaco Paint job versus a high end collision shop paint job. Resto/Custom work is different, The customer has different expectations and it's up to the Shop to educate the customer about the cost of what they want done and why it costs what it does. It's as important to know how to choose your customers as customers choosing you. Time it takes to do something right doesn't change whether it's Pinto or a Ferrari. (relatively speaking)
Personally I have learned through many big errors on my part and from talking to folks over the years that if someone comes in focused on getting it done for as low a price as possible, I don't want that customer. If someone insists on a hard estimate I tell them I can't do it. If they tell me so and so will do it for less I tell them take it there then. It is hard to do that at first when you need the work, but in the long run you are better off than you would be losing money on a job. Wise man once said that the busiest shop in town is usually the first one to go out of business.

If someone thinks they can accurately estimate any job, I got to say you will be in for some pain sooner or later. Usually much sooner. If you did one specific thing for one specific car, then yes you could probably give an accurate estimate. But every old car is different, different amounts of rust, or collision repair long ago. Just way too many factors to even start to give an accurate estimate. Best you can do is give some general guidelines for how long certain things will take.
I'll say it again, there is a reason why almost all reputable resto/custom shops only work time and materials. Only way they can make money.
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  #19  
Old 04-27-2020, 06:34 PM
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Point taken, Chris. No worry on my end because according to your mantra, we are doing everything right.

I am convinced that I presented an unfair-to-ask inquiry due to variables. If I can summarize with this image, that'll suit me.



That is the example, and is about what people usually want to buy. I didn't get triple digits from it. This will be blasted and epoxy primed. Patch, weld, make sure it won't need more than 1/8" of filler (per instructions on can).

Now... if I were to give that spot a healthy application of polyester primer, block it... maybe use a dab of 2K glaze, then another app of poly primer... whatcha want to bet I could make that bondo-free. Even with the pitting left in order to "keep it small". So along with so many other variables, a redefining of "primer" can also serve to confuse.

I will go away with the opinion that it is safe to say "No bondo costs extra. Sometimes a lot." and leave it at that. Thanks again to all who replied, for your input and patience
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Old 04-28-2020, 10:53 AM
gashammer gashammer is offline
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Originally Posted by Chris_Hamilton View Post
Still maintain that in this Business if you try to give estimates you are going to go broke sooner rather than later. I know that from my own personal experience and from that of others I know.

Yes there are levels but let's face it, it's not the same as a Maaco Paint job versus a high end collision shop paint job. Resto/Custom work is different, The customer has different expectations and it's up to the Shop to educate the customer about the cost of what they want done and why it costs what it does. It's as important to know how to choose your customers as customers choosing you. Time it takes to do something right doesn't change whether it's Pinto or a Ferrari. (relatively speaking)
Personally I have learned through many big errors on my part and from talking to folks over the years that if someone comes in focused on getting it done for as low a price as possible, I don't want that customer. If someone insists on a hard estimate I tell them I can't do it. If they tell me so and so will do it for less I tell them take it there then. It is hard to do that at first when you need the work, but in the long run you are better off than you would be losing money on a job. Wise man once said that the busiest shop in town is usually the first one to go out of business.

If someone thinks they can accurately estimate any job, I got to say you will be in for some pain sooner or later. Usually much sooner. If you did one specific thing for one specific car, then yes you could probably give an accurate estimate. But every old car is different, different amounts of rust, or collision repair long ago. Just way too many factors to even start to give an accurate estimate. Best you can do is give some general guidelines for how long certain things will take.
I'll say it again, there is a reason why almost all reputable resto/custom shops only work time and materials. Only way they can make money.
I couldn't agree with you more. I like to keep some smaller but nevertheless impressive work around the shop. I have a Lambretta scooter that is in bare metal which has been metal finished to a very high level. It shines. I keep it there so customers know that can be applied to their vehicle. I also let them know that this kind of work is a process of refinement. Refinement takes time. How refined do you want your project?

Another technique which I've been applying lately is to give the customer a verbal estimate based upon what I see with the understanding that I don't have x-ray vision. While undertaking this kind of project there will be chassis work as well as outer panel work. I always plan on metal finishing the exterior panels, but I hold off on any grinding of the lesser seen work until we near the end of the project. If the customer would like more of the chassis detailed, then that costs extra.

It's difficult to put a price tag on this kind of work but the fact stands that it is expensive. I think the most effective path to success is to have a good reputation for quality work. The collector car community is relatively small. Customers looking for quality first will find you if that is what you provide.
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