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  #11  
Old 02-09-2012, 11:24 PM
scranm scranm is offline
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Mike, I find your topic very interesting. I have looked into this topic. I live near Indy so there many race car fabricators there. All of the
best fab guys say gas welding is the best method for joining alum panels because turns the metal to the "O" temper. Which leaves it dead soft and much easier to planish than a tig weld. They say if you do much hammering on the tig weld it cracks easily and is brittle.
Another thing I learned was you don't need to flux the front of the panel when you weld it. They say the flame will shield the weld puddle and the flux is only needed on the back side of the panel. Some guys also suggest to use hydrogen
instead of acetylene. Some of the best looking welds I have ever seen were gas welded fuel cells made by Mckinney chassis and Jerry Weeks. I will probably never gas weld as good as them.
What is interesting is if you ask Fay Butler about gas welding he will tell you it is junk and is a dirty weld and tig welding is a much better process. Anyhow, thats my two cents. Looking forward to seeing more of your post.
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  #12  
Old 02-09-2012, 11:26 PM
scranm scranm is offline
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF1Srs_e1Aw
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  #13  
Old 02-09-2012, 11:31 PM
whmachine whmachine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scranm View Post
They say if you do much hammering on the tig weld it cracks easily and is brittle.
I had heard the same thing, which is why the testing, to see for myself!


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Another thing I learned was you don't need to flux the front of the panel when you weld it. They say the flame will shield the weld puddle and the flux is only needed on the back side of the panel.
Interesting, may have to play with that some
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  #14  
Old 02-09-2012, 11:34 PM
whmachine whmachine is offline
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That video is what inspired me to do this, lol
I may have to do one called "how good is your gas weld?" when this is over!
Anybody want to put some money on the TIG welded samples?
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  #15  
Old 02-10-2012, 07:22 AM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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...I may have to do one called "how good is your gas weld?" when this is over! Anybody want to put some money on the TIG welded samples?
Mike, that wouldn't be a fair test. You are a VERY, VERY competent TIG welder. (Mike's Chassis welds should be in a museum!)

We've discussed this a bunch and it's always good to look at things from a fresh perspective. Following is one such thread. I'll tell you know that this subject is a bit of a 'holy war'. Folks seem to be very passionate about one method or the other.

http://allmetalshaping.com/showthrea...light=gas+weld

I did a very similar test with a customer last year Mike. It's for a restoration project that was gas welded originally and the welds are unfinished on the back and visible so it must be restored with gas welds.

Anyway, my customer ( very competent welder ) did a Gas Weld with 4041 rod, another with 1100, and then TIGed two panels with the 4041 and 1100. These he sent me these samples for testing.

If I recall correctly, the 4041 cracked with very little work but both the GAS and TIG with 1100 were pretty similar. Eventually the TIG did fail first but I have to say that both held up far, FAR, beyond any post weld shaping I ever do on a panel.

However, there was a HUGE difference in appearance and effort required to metalfinish. They look difference and someone who knows will always be able to tell how it was welded. The gas welds also have a less proud bead and are quicker to metalfinish IMO.

I will say that 1100 rod is key for me being able to TIG aluminum successfully. I had tons of cracking issues when I used 4041.

Still looking for the photos I took and I'm not sure I ever posted it.
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  #16  
Old 02-10-2012, 08:03 AM
whmachine whmachine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry Pinkerton View Post
Mike, that wouldn't be a fair test. You are a VERY, VERY competent TIG welder. (Mike's Chassis welds should be in a museum!)
Just to clarify, since Kerry knows the truth, this week is the first time I ever O/A aluminum. So, in that regard, it would not be fair to compare this to someone who has spent a lifetime with a O/A torch snorting flux fumes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry Pinkerton View Post
We've discussed this a bunch and it's always good to look at things from a fresh perspective. Following is one such thread. I'll tell you know that this subject is a bit of a 'holy war'. Folks seem to be very passionate about one method or the other.
And rightfully so, people do what they are comfortable with, and what works for them. No dog in this hunt, just sharing test results


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If I recall correctly, the 4041 cracked with very little work but both the GAS and TIG with 1100 were pretty similar. Eventually the TIG did fail first but I have to say that both held up far, FAR, beyond any post weld shaping I ever do on a panel.
Agreed, no need to worry about either process

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Originally Posted by Kerry Pinkerton View Post
However, there was a HUGE difference in appearance and effort required to metalfinish. They look difference and someone who knows will always be able to tell how it was welded. The gas welds also have a less proud bead and are quicker to metalfinish IMO.
One thing that bothers me is all the warnings about flux clean up, must be done with a certain temperature of water, and afterwards even recommend some other chemical wipe to remove residue, or years from now your show quality paint job might melt and run off in the floor. (paraphrasing here)
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  #17  
Old 02-10-2012, 04:39 PM
hotrodder hotrodder is offline
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This subject came up another forum a while ago with the oxyfuel guys posting the Kent White vid. I don't own a video camera but did a similar thing using TIG, material is 1.5mm (~0.060") 1050-H14, wire was 2.4mm 1050 (i was running low on 1.6mm) which isn't ideal. Without video the difference in hardness between the two processes can't really be seen....

Front and backside, single pass full pen. 2 stop/starts included
P3150397.jpg P3150398.jpg

I just pounded the coupon into a bag...
P3150401.jpg P3150402.jpg

And then crudely bashed it flat(ish) again
P3150403.jpg P3150405.jpg

Before folding it in half along the weld centre line using the edge of the table
P3150406.jpg
and then opening it up
P3150409.jpg

Personally my take is that oxy welds are quite a bit softer and more easily worked, TIG has the advantage of no flux to clean up but because a smaller area is annealed the time saved cleaning up is spent planishing. My thinking is that the long term fatigue properties of oxyfuel are likely to better but then that's a harder thing to quantify

4043 wire is stronger/harder and more brittle and never stands up well to welds that'll be worked/planished
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