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  #21  
Old 10-03-2015, 09:38 AM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
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Originally Posted by KAD View Post
Just to add a bit into the fracas....

The transition areas on the anvils with flats make a huge difference in how they wheel.

Just my opinion but I feel that there is an "In between" design that will have most of the benefits of the individual designs and minimize most of the down sides.
It took me awhile to make the transitions better on my flat's but basically it's trial and error between wheeling and sanding under different pressure till the dreaded lines fade away.


Likely why this subject can never be "concluded" as the frame design, operator and training are all unknowns and will effect the outcome and opinions forever.
Yes, this is what I've found, using the old "original" machines. Shaping becomes marvelous when the transitions are worked.
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  #22  
Old 10-03-2015, 10:17 AM
JimRussell JimRussell is offline
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Hi Kirk,

Quote:
The transition areas on the anvils with flats make a huge difference in how they wheel.

Just my opinion but I feel that there is an "In between" design that will have most of the benefits of the individual designs and minimize most of the down sides.
It took me awhile to make the transitions better on my flat's but basically it's trial and error between wheeling and sanding under different pressure till the dreaded lines fade away.
I agree and have posted the same on another site. It takes a bit of trial and error, but those dreaded lines can be eliminated.
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  #23  
Old 10-03-2015, 03:21 PM
Maxakarudy Maxakarudy is offline
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Just to dispell the myth, has anybody found flats naturally occurring on radiused anvils?
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  #24  
Old 10-03-2015, 06:24 PM
Ken Hosford Ken Hosford is offline
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Yes I have crushed flats into no hardened anvils . probably wheeling stainless
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  #25  
Old 10-05-2015, 11:00 AM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxakarudy View Post
Just to dispell the myth, has anybody found flats naturally occurring on radiused anvils?
While I have not put a straight edge on them, my observation was that at least some of Cass' anvils were not constant radius, that is had flattened in use. Cass uses bearings shells for his upper wheels and they are exceptionally hard. I'm pretty sure his lowers are made from cold roll and regardless are not as hard as the upper.

As others have said, it's whatever works for you. Metal just sees PSI, it's up to us how and where to apply it. I don't worry much about tracking in early stages any more than I do about lumps from bag work or tuck shrinking marks. It will all come out in the wash out process.
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  #26  
Old 03-08-2019, 11:26 PM
mark g mark g is offline
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[QUOTE=crystallographic;117636]

Later, I worked on a Wheel that was purchased from the Frank Kurtis remnants, vintage pre-1952 or so. Had a sprocket on the upper so it could be driven for making long skinny sections. I used that Wheel a lot for a while. The rolls all had flats. And the upper was tapered off from the center flat, so that the widest flat on a lower would match the flat on the upper. The Wheel was a dream to use. The taper was .080" or so, by straightedge. I've only seen a few uppers like that, over the years.


Kent,
I'm interested in your experience with the wheeling machine mentioned above. Was the machine a dream to use because of the unique upper wheel with the tapers, or for other reasons. What specific benefits did you notice in the wheel being configured that way? Was it limited in anyway when compares to a typical flat upper wheel? Thanks.
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Last edited by mark g; 03-08-2019 at 11:56 PM.
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  #27  
Old 03-09-2019, 04:01 AM
Peter Tommasini Peter Tommasini is offline
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Is it just a coincidence?????
Just today I was doing a bit more on my N 11 dvd Called (shaping with the English wheel), and I was explaining and demonstrating why I do not use lower anvils with flats on them .I simply showed the principle behind wheeling with flats and full radius I will let you guys decide which is the better way.

I still maintain that the ''flats'' where only anvils worn out in the center by over use, and someone way back then thought that....this is the way that they are when in actual fact they started off as a full radius lower anvil
Peter
PS to further my point.... If anvils where made purposely with flats, how one determine the width of the flat on each radius anvil ? In another words how wide is the flat on a 36 inches anvil compared to a 8.5 inches anvil etc ? Or are we just guessing??
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  #28  
Old 03-10-2019, 08:34 PM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Tommasini View Post
Is it just a coincidence?????
Just today I was doing a bit more on my N 11 dvd Called (shaping with the English wheel), and I was explaining and demonstrating why I do not use lower anvils with flats on them .I simply showed the principle behind wheeling with flats and full radius I will let you guys decide which is the better way.

I still maintain that the ''flats'' where only anvils worn out in the center by over use, and someone way back then thought that....this is the way that they are when in actual fact they started off as a full radius lower anvil
Peter
PS to further my point.... If anvils where made purposely with flats, how one determine the width of the flat on each radius anvil ? In another words how wide is the flat on a 36 inches anvil compared to a 8.5 inches anvil etc ? Or are we just guessing??

Peter,
There is a ratio for the radius vs the width of the flat.
I have it sumplace ....
But it is a general guide that works with full-size cast frames.

Wider flats are fine with thin soft sheet on FLXIble frames.

Or with hard sheet on stiff stout frames. Like a 1.5in flat is nice for aircraft structural sheet, when the frame is enough to press tons.

And lower rolls with no radius and just flats are not uncommon in aircraft shops.

Cannot see any value at all doing full radius on aircraft precipitation hardened structural material - at all - ever - a true non-starter.

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  #29  
Old 03-11-2019, 07:36 AM
RockHillWill RockHillWill is offline
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Kent, I agree with all of the above, and you were particularly good about explaining using the anvils with flats on aircraft materials with stiff frames at our last meeting, but would add that in my case it was made clear that on the softer materials like the 3003H14 and the 1018 materials that using the full radius anvils with either a stiff or flexible machine made smoother panels in less amount of time and also minimized the time or even the need for 'washing'.
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  #30  
Old 03-11-2019, 11:49 AM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
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Kent, I agree with all of the above, and you were particularly good about explaining using the anvils with flats on aircraft materials with stiff frames at our last meeting, but would add that in my case it was made clear that on the softer materials like the 3003H14 and the 1018 materials that using the full radius anvils with either a stiff or flexible machine made smoother panels in less amount of time and also minimized the time or even the need for 'washing'.

What does comparative testing show with high crown vs very low crown panels?
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