All MetalShaping

Go Back   All MetalShaping > General Metal Shaping Discussion > Welding Sheet Metal
  Today's Posts Posts for Last 7 Days Posts for Last 14 Days  

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #41  
Old 11-30-2017, 08:33 PM
Mike Motage Mike Motage is offline
MetalShaper of the Month Oct 2016
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: S.E.Michigan
Posts: 615
Default

There is an interest in the old school ways relating to autos and motorcycles. Partly because someone is building repairing something old. Sometimes, we just want to learn and practice old school because it's fun. In these cases, easier or faster has no relevance.
Too often, people will say " my friend did what you're doing, he built his own Mustang". I get defensive, because talking is one thing, prove it!. Many of us put a tremendous amount of effort into our projects and having someone " my way is better" after the work been done, can be annoying.
Thank you for showing your work it proves you have real experience. Some people only have opinions.

I believe our issue is resolved.
__________________
Mike

Last edited by Mike Motage; 11-30-2017 at 08:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 11-30-2017, 09:58 PM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
MetalShaper of the Month October '14 & April '16
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western Sierra Nevadas, Badger Hill, CA
Posts: 2,761
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllyBill View Post
How's this for obscure? A pair of fully TIG welded aluminium feet for a life size Californian brown pelican. They can't walk the walk but they look good.



Will
Those are a nice pair of (obscure) feet!!
Well done, Will!!
__________________
Kent

http://www.tinmantech.com

"All it takes is a little practical experience to blow the he!! out of a perfectly good theory." --- Lloyd Rosenquist, charter member AWS, 1919.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-01-2017, 05:03 AM
Jerry Jackson Jerry Jackson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 65
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Tomczyk View Post
Just an aside to the main points being discussed - I am sure that both methods have their own pros & cons and uses dependent upon the job.
To come to the point though - And the job here would be making vintage car panels in .060" 1050 "half hard" (uk specs) - IF you used Tig to weld the panels using the same material filler - if you then annealed the weld area before reverting to planishing and wheeling the joins - wouldn't this still produce the same result as just gas welding it? Or would it still be more prone to cracking as the end resulting metallurgy is fundamentally different?

You may think why? Well why not if it get the job done to the standards required? Additionally some may not have a full OA set up and perhaps for some who are really struggling with OA welding Ali or have time constraints to the learning of gas welding Ali it may provide a solution?
Jim has a good question. Does anyone have an opinion on it?

Jerry Jackson
San Antonio
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-01-2017, 06:50 AM
AllyBill AllyBill is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 298
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Jackson View Post
Jim has a good question. Does anyone have an opinion on it?

Jerry Jackson
San Antonio
Not sure I fully understand the question but I've made many panels from similar material and my process is to tack the parts together, flush off the tacks then wheel the panel to finalise the shape before welding. Inevitably some of the tacks crack as the harden under the wheel but they can be either ignored or reinstated as you go.
With the shape sorted the amount of distortion is minimised and therefore so is the amount of planishing and wheeling afterwards so nothing should crack.
I don't use native material as filler unless the material is something unusual or it's important not to have discontinuities in the finished job. Had to weld some 7068 recently and I wasn't about to put a line of something different through the middle of that so it was mostly fused together and topped up with some slivers of material I harvested from down an unseen edge.
The only time I see cracking at the welds is when inserting patch repairs and welding old to new as it can be difficult to avoid inclusions or corrosion through older material. New metal with new filler shouldn't crack.
At the edge of a panel I put a check weld in with the material cold then immediately hammer it flat to create a stretched area to prevent cracks growing inwards from the edge then weld up to it. If there is corrosion or inclusions causing cracking I'll sometimes use a hammer and dolly to stretch the weld into a nice hard crown to actually make it crack if it's thinking of doing so, I then weld it again then heat-shrink the crown down again to anneal and knead the metal into one homogenous mass. It's a bit of overkill but its extremely effective.

Will
__________________
Here to learn.


William Pointer
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12-01-2017, 09:07 AM
Mike Motage Mike Motage is offline
MetalShaper of the Month Oct 2016
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: S.E.Michigan
Posts: 615
Default

Jim and Jerry,
I tried having 1 long weld seam tacked using a newer inverter style Tig machine. I was having trouble keeping the 2 panels aligned and needed a second set of hands. He is better Tig aluminum than I and suggested the tacks would anneal. The tacks looked, were good, about 1/2" in length. I finished welded with O/A, everything looked ok until I started planishing the area. Cracks appeared at nearly every tacked point. I thought the tacks would get annealed by gas welding over them. Eventually I ended up with an acceptable joint but, the side that I did totally O/A is considerably nicer.

Why? My skill is probably better at gas vs Tig. Did the tacks stay harder or more porous? I don't have the answer. I only know that on 52" long weld down the center of my bonnet between the power lump and scoops there was a problem. I know lots of people Tig their aluminum body panels, including a close friend and mentor. The ultra experienced coach builders on this site encouraged me to use O/A only and not mix the methods on aluminum. This has worked well, and I'm now confident in my ability to join aluminum panels.

I have not tried every option, but have found what works me on the shapes and panels that I have.
__________________
Mike

Last edited by Mike Motage; 12-01-2017 at 09:15 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 12-01-2017, 10:32 AM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
MetalShaper of the Month October '14 & April '16
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western Sierra Nevadas, Badger Hill, CA
Posts: 2,761
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Tomczyk View Post
Just an aside to the main points being discussed - I am sure that both methods have their own pros & cons and uses dependent upon the job.
To come to the point though - And the job here would be making vintage car panels in .060" 1050 "half hard" (uk specs) - IF you used Tig to weld the panels using the same material filler - if you then annealed the weld area before reverting to planishing and wheeling the joins - wouldn't this still produce the same result as just gas welding it? Or would it still be more prone to cracking as the end resulting metallurgy is fundamentally different?

You may think why? Well why not if it get the job done to the standards required? Additionally some may not have a full OA set up and perhaps for some who are really struggling with OA welding Ali or have time constraints to the learning of gas welding Ali it may provide a solution?
Hi Jim,
Sorry - I forgot about this question of yours ....
I have seen and heard of these problems, cracking during planishing, with tig welding. If the filler is the correct alloy, the metal is clean prior to welding, and the inert gas is clean one would expect no problem.
One thing remains: "Dilution."
And, according to the Aluminum Association, TIG welding offers less dilution by its fundamental nature, than does OFW welding.
With TIG you have to stir/agitate/mix the puddle as you weld, in order to facilitate dilution - something that OFW does naturally, by its nature.
(Of course there are those welders who have no problems whatsoever with their work ... )

I have welded old aluminum to new repair panels on many different old sports/race/touring cars from several different countries, on several different alloys, with zero post-weld cracking problems -
while I hear about so many problems with "old metal" - and its being blamed for the problems so much that whole original bodies have been scrapped for Mr. TIG to be able to weld nice Fresh Familiar Aluminum.
(phooey on that )

It's not about "annealing" - it's about dilution.
Dilution is the mixing of the filler into the surrounding material enough to make a healthy workable transition from one alloy to another.

-end of lecture on that topic.
/////////////////////////////////
Next Question:
What is your (the) goal when welding your panels? To weld with as little filler as possible and just planish. Or do some file work before planishing.

I assume our goal should be to use as little rod possible and planish with no filing to make the weld disappear.

Mark

When doing "panel work" - and not making tanks - the goal is to have a smooth surface across the welds lines. How you accomplish this is up to your skill level / your "style."

I think it's fair to say that some craftsmen prefer finesse welding and finesse planishing to achieve their products -
while others are content with being able to weld enough that the weld tops can be mowed off, the stalactites shaved from beneath, on the root side, and then go to smoothing by whatever hand tools or mechanical hammer or wheel to get to the goal.
Both get the job done.

Also:

What is the customer willing to pay for?
Is the job polished?
Bare?
Paint-grade?

These are also worthy considerations.

Some craftsmen are pushed into doing polished work while apprentices, and others may never see that type of work, so the style of work comes from the working environment, and not so much from the craftsman's preference - although some guys push their own envelopes just to find out what is over the horizon.

hope this helps ...
__________________
Kent

http://www.tinmantech.com

"All it takes is a little practical experience to blow the he!! out of a perfectly good theory." --- Lloyd Rosenquist, charter member AWS, 1919.

Last edited by crystallographic; 12-01-2017 at 04:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 12-01-2017, 12:01 PM
cliffrod cliffrod is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Posts: 1,208
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crystallographic View Post

What is the customer willing to pay for?
Is the job polished?
Bare?
Paint-grade?

These are also worthy considerations.

Some craftsmen are pushed into doing polished work while apprentices, and others may never see that type of work, so the style of work comes from the working environment, and not so much from the craftsman's preference - although some guys push their own envelopes just to find out what is over the horizon.

hope this helps ...
Very good words to take to heart. So many people lose sight of the fact that most things produced for $$ are more likely to be built down to a cost and not up to a standard. The same is as true now as it was decades ago.

Pretty sure Mike (and Kerry and Will and all the other people here building their own over-the-top personal car from scratch) passed the intersection of profit & loss at WOT long, long ago..... So now it's all about what they can and want to do.

I like watching people chase excellence, just because they want to- Very cool stuff. Keep it coming, Mike.
__________________
AC Button II
http://CarolinaSculptureStudio.com
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzSYaYdis55gE-vqifzjA6A Carolina Sculpture Studio Channel
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 12-01-2017, 12:22 PM
AllyBill AllyBill is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 298
Default

Only time I ever had issues with dilution is when diluting up, ie using a harder filler than the material I was welding. Sometimes on thin or poor material a 5xxx rod will flow better and seems to float off inclusions that bit better than the softer rods, which sometimes skin over the weld pool. But in that instance the problem is usually the state of the native material.
Never had to agitate the pool either. So long as the metal is flowing properly it will fuse together and just needs topping up with a little filler.

Here's the other end of the pelican, by the way. Nowhere near finished but so far so good and a little of the process can be discerned.

Head with Ruler.jpg



Will
__________________
Here to learn.


William Pointer

Last edited by Steve Hamilton; 12-01-2017 at 12:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 12-04-2017, 02:55 PM
Jim Tomczyk Jim Tomczyk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: England,UK
Posts: 59
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crystallographic View Post
Hi Jim,
Sorry - I forgot about this question of yours ....
I have seen and heard of these problems, cracking during planishing, with tig welding. If the filler is the correct alloy, the metal is clean prior to welding, and the inert gas is clean one would expect no problem.
One thing remains: "Dilution."
And, according to the Aluminum Association, TIG welding offers less dilution by its fundamental nature, than does OFW welding.
With TIG you have to stir/agitate/mix the puddle as you weld, in order to facilitate dilution - something that OFW does naturally, by its nature.
(Of course there are those welders who have no problems whatsoever with their work ... )

I have welded old aluminum to new repair panels on many different old sports/race/touring cars from several different countries, on several different alloys, with zero post-weld cracking problems -
while I hear about so many problems with "old metal" - and its being blamed for the problems so much that whole original bodies have been scrapped for Mr. TIG to be able to weld nice Fresh Familiar Aluminum.
(phooey on that )

It's not about "annealing" - it's about dilution.
Dilution is the mixing of the filler into the surrounding material enough to make a healthy workable transition from one alloy to another.

-end of lecture on that topic.
/////////////////////////////////
Next Question: [I]
What is your (the) goal when welding your panels? To weld with as little filler as possible and just planish. Or do some file work before planishing.

I assume our goal should be to use as little rod possible and planish with no filing to make the weld disappear)
Thanks Kent for the detailed explanation and reply (and Jerry /Mike /AllyBill for your inputs)
Answers the questions or should I say blanks I had in my head - especially as very much a " learner " & hadn't heard of dilution - appreciate this is more of a problem if welding new to old materials - does this still also apply though if the same material is used as filler? - assuming new to new and filler is an offcut of the new.

Not looking for a shortcut - as my personal goal with gas welding is as you say -just interested in the flexibility of the different processes and where they might crossover if at all.
__________________
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 12-04-2017, 03:21 PM
AllyBill AllyBill is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 298
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Tomczyk View Post
does this still also apply though if the same material is used as filler? - assuming new to new and filler is an offcut of the new.
That combination welds with no problems as a rule. Need a clean tungsten and materials and enough gas but that's a given anyway.
Where may people seem to go wrong in converting from gas to TIG is that TIG will put heat into the metal so much faster than gas so you can give it a bootful of pedal and get welding right away. This causes problems with the weld being quenched by the cooler metal around it resulting in brittle welds, all sorts of residual stresses and poor penetration. If the job is suitably heat-soaked before you start dilution should not be an issue at all even if you dilute up on new material.

Will
__________________
Here to learn.


William Pointer
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.