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Old 07-10-2014, 12:57 AM
longyard longyard is offline
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Default Flash Back Arrestors?

I'm starting a new thread based on Dave Deyton's good question about adding safety features to welding outfits.

What's the difference between the flashback arrestors that mount to the torch, and those that mount to the regulators? Should you use both? If only using one, which is best?

David G's comments about safety have gotten me rethinking my three O/A rigs and their safety features. Been using regulator arrestors for 3 decades. Maybe need torch ones too?

Kent's point that you can overthink all this is also true, as I've welded 32 years (self taught) and never had a problem and certainly DON'T want Big Brother sticking his nose in my shop.

Ideas? Opinions?
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  #2  
Old 07-10-2014, 02:01 AM
metalman sweden metalman sweden is offline
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Hi Bill.
I can just talk about the Swedish law around this ac - ox outfits.

A rig should have backfire blockers attaced to the regulators AND the torch handle at both sides and all this ones have a experied date.

After the date is out they SHOULD be changed for a approved set which can be new or re checked by a aproved company , usully handled by the welding and gas depot.

Every 5 year SHOULD the hoses be replaced and thats the same for propan hoses.

All garages and shops that have gasbottles MUST have a sign at the wall that says their are gas in there.

ALL gas bottles SHOULD be set back in a marked spot in the shop over the nights, always near a door. IF the rigs are spread over the shop and a fire start the fire dept. Will just back off and let the building burn down, just try to cool down the bottles to avoid bombs!

At every gas rig it is recommended for safety a pair of heavy leather glowes and a fireproof blanket.

It is not legal to transport gasbottles on/ in a private car,van or truck without a form that tells you the risks and what you are responsibe for.

I was representat for ESAB ( welding equipment )and AGA ( gas company )for some years and was then abel to follow all this laws in many classes, im not updated for some years but Im pretty sure they have not been less complicated.

Another interesting thing to note is: if you do any HOT work anywhere outside the approved shop ( in a industry,farm,commercical,office or whatever) you need a document that is named " hot work " which means that you are competent to handle any kind of heat generated tool like grinder, propanblower,all welding equipment BUT that also make you resposible to follow a form with points the SHOULD be set up for maximum safety BEFORE any work is started!!
If you dont follow the rules here and screw it up YOU ARE screwed up!!

This "driving licence" must be updated every 5 th year.

All this is ofcourse for safety for people and property and it can sometimes be frustrating to wait for the last sign at the safety form just for 2 minutes of welding or cutting... But it can be even worse if you burn down a building...



I really hope that everyone understand that this are serios danger in this gasbottles and its not just the burn gasses it is also all other highpressure cylinders!

Be careful and take a look at your equipment, maybe it need a service?

Yes, it is boring with text but here it is pretty important...
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  #3  
Old 07-10-2014, 02:33 AM
Janne Janne is offline
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Here in Finland, it is pretty much same, from what I know.But the "hot work" card/license, or work permit, has to be renewed every two years.And we also have the kind of same card for occupational safety and health..

If you want to work on a docks or some bigger worksite, you need these cards, or there is no way, you are working in there. But I also think, it is a little bit on cashing of companies, since I think the two years time,for renewing them, is a too short..

But I have never heard a accident happen from oxy and acetylene equipment,in here and the history of old timers , that I know..

But these post about safety, like said many times, are good..My advice also is, donīt buy used hoses or regulators...or arrestors, etc..people seem to sell them very often...
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Old 07-10-2014, 05:40 AM
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RockHillWill RockHillWill is offline
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Good information guys. I just ordered flashback arrestors from the Tinman that will go at the regulators. Are they also needed at the torch? If you use a 'gas saver' are they needed there as well?
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Old 07-10-2014, 05:52 AM
Dave Deyton Dave Deyton is offline
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This is exactly what I was wondering. Got the gas saver and the flash back arrestors at the torch.
Do I need more?

Good discussion, good information.


Thanks,
Dave
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:46 AM
JimRussell JimRussell is offline
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I was told once that the flash back arrestors should be at both ends of the hoses. The torch arrestors will hopefully stop the flash back from getting to the hoses, but if you were to accidently burn a hose (with the torch or a hot piece of metal) you would need them at the regulators. Made sense to me. Maybe others have a different take.
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:54 AM
crystallographic crystallographic is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHillWill View Post
Good information guys. I just ordered flashback arrestors from the Tinman that will go at the regulators. Are they also needed at the torch? If you use a 'gas saver' are they needed there as well?
Will, Set the flashback arrestors at the gasaver outlet. You can have a second set at the regs, but it is not necessary unless you run a second torch set directly from the regs.

Our FB arrestors also contain the check valves, so adding those is redundant, except where specific insurance or safety regulations specify having them at the torch. As has been noted in these very good threads lately, Victor and Harris offer some torch models with check valves in them.

If hoses are stiff then they should be replaced, or especially if they are showing any signs of cracking. 10 years is about the limit of hose life, with oxygten and fuel gas exposure. Please check all threads and orifices before connecting them. Blow out regs before hooking hose, and then blow hose before hooking torch, and blow torch before hooking tip.

What Per and Janne said about safety in Sweden and Finland is also very true in the USA as universal rules, except for the specific laws pertaining to certain aspects. The "hot work" permit and the replacement times are either suggested safety limits here or are limits set by local fire regulations, insurance companies, or companies' own safety specs. In some areas fire requirements require a steel or concrete container for extra bottles of gas, and having the flammability signs posted is pretty universal for notifying fire personnel arriving in emergency. Law requires that all gas bottles be chained or bolted to a secure stanchion to prevent tipping over, fire extinguishers must be posted, and gloves and blankets nearby.

Regulators can get old and still be workable, but it is wise to have old ones checked by a repair shop before use. Since my company has been selling oxy-fuel torch gear for over 20 years we have seen changes in the quality of new regs, with some malfunctioning after one week in service. Personally, I like the older regs but I am having a hard time getting them rebuilt well, at least in SF Bay area. If anyone knows of a really good rebuilder I'd sure like to know.

I have been using the torch professionally since 1970, and have worked in many aviation and race car environments since then. Some shops do not permit the torch at all, though it is for metallurgy safety reasons, as they do not want the technicians tempted to do experimenting. I have never seen a serious incident, but when I was in welding school in 1970 they said a kid had just exploded himself in Las Vegas by trying to exhale fire after inhaling the acetylene. People, people, people !!!

It is best to be safe first, than sorry after.
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:55 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Flashback arrestors at the torch will prevent the hoses going bang but will not protect the torch. A torch is designed to withstand working situations. I would only use a torch intended for welding sheet metal. I guess its a bit like putting a 40 ton truck on a 5 ton jack - I just would not do it.

As I showed in my thread the major cause of flashbacks is the tip getting too hot. If you have a torch designed to weld sheet metal it will soak up the heat and it will not be a problem. There should be sufficient bulk in the torch to withstand the heat given off during the welding process. This is my understanding of the physics of the torch. The tip gets too hot the risk of flashbacks increases. This is not my opinion, I showed information from several reliable sources.
If you use a jewelers torch for soldering jewelry the tip is never going to be exposed to very much heat. When it come to using something as potentially dangerous and O/A I don't think you can overthink it.


As a side note, I had a lightweight torch (full size but lightweight) for years but the smaller tips tend to get a bit hot and the flame tends to adjust as the orifice gets smaller due to the heat expansion. I have now gone back to a full size torch with thicker heavier nozzles its much more stable and much better to weld with. I will be going into more detail about torches in my gas welding equipment thread.


David
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Last edited by David Gardiner; 07-10-2014 at 09:02 AM.
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  #9  
Old 07-10-2014, 12:36 PM
Babych44 Babych44 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janne View Post
Here in Finland, it is pretty much same, from what I know.But the "hot work" card/license, or work permit, has to be renewed every two years.And we also have the kind of same card for occupational safety and health..

If you want to work on a docks or some bigger worksite, you need these cards, or there is no way, you are working in there. But I also think, it is a little bit on cashing of companies, since I think the two years time,for renewing them, is a too short..

But I have never heard a accident happen from oxy and acetylene equipment,in here and the history of old timers , that I know..

But these post about safety, like said many times, are good..My advice also is, donīt buy used hoses or regulators...or arrestors, etc..people seem to sell them very often...
Actually Janne those are valid for five years (thank god) So boring class, important or not
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Old 07-10-2014, 06:13 PM
Janne Janne is offline
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Jani, I remembered, it wrong , actually when I think about it, why would we have different rules, then on Sweden..

Was it welding license,that expires in two years?...or then I am just, lost
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