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  #31  
Old 09-10-2012, 07:01 AM
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Joe Hartson Joe Hartson is offline
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Well said Keith.

There are many different way to accomplish a metal shaping project and get the desired result. How you get the surface information is not all that important. Filing, sanding or some other method that gives you the information is the only thing that counts. We all learn how to do things differently and what works for you is what you should use. There is more than one way to go to town and they are all correct.
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  #32  
Old 09-10-2012, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHillWill View Post
....Would it be possible for some folks to display some various types of body 'files' ?
Here are some of mine Will. http://www.allmetalshaping.com/showt...ght=Vixen+file

There are many, many different files and also the number of teeth/inch. If there is enough interest, we can have a seminar at DixieLand in a couple weeks.

I'll add that filing on steel is much different than aluminum. With aluminum, you can remove material very quickly...too quickly in some situations and I can show some places in the roadster where I got carried away with the file to the detriment of the panel.
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  #33  
Old 09-10-2012, 07:41 AM
route56wingnut route56wingnut is offline
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Working with a Vixen file is like most opperations , You have to use your head .It is no different than using the incorrect sander for achieving the same results . If you start with an ill fitting weld seam you are setting yourself up for failure . The file is a great tool for only picking up the raised areas . That being said ,if you have an area that you have made no reasonable attempt to straightening out , then what will the file do except thin out metal that should not be .


Working with Cass Nawroki I was shown many ways to achieve ammasing results for surface prep . He mostly used the files for aluminum , but used them when needed for steel . His go to tool is a 8" grinder that he claims to be able to perform (Heart Surgery) with .Who am I to question . After being used to using a 3" and 4 " angle grinders ,I thought my God I will tear this thing to shreads . Wrong , It works similar to the concept of the Vixen where it only sees high spots , and just glides over the smooth surfaces . As you first try this you will see a shower of sparks coming off the surface and assume you are ruining the panel , only to find out you are only cutting the pride of the weld .


This is where you have to use your head and stop and check your surface to see if you have undue highs and lows . Now on flat areas a straight line sander or Vixen used with Dycem to read the panel will 'work very good for this but on reverses and high crowns I would say the 8" grinder works great . Again there is a learning curve with any tool or method and if you want to ruin a panel quickly just take that grinder and burn an edge .USE YOUR HEAD
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Last edited by route56wingnut; 09-10-2012 at 07:44 AM.
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  #34  
Old 09-10-2012, 07:54 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redoxide View Post
there has to be a degree of personal satisfaction in a job, If you can put it back to the customer knowing you have done yoiur absolute best then you can sleep at night. As an amature I try to learn all aspects of metalshaping and repair and make every effort to do a good job, I treat every job as a learning curve and spend far to long working out th best angle of attack and finnishing up. I do it from a learning standpoint, I put the extra effort in so I can achieve my goal of improving my skills.
I feel sorry for a few of the folks I have done work for ( I dont do a lot of work as I dont really have a lot of time, but when I do get a job I only take it on if the owner isnt in a hurry) It saddens me that some folks pride and joy are from my experiance pretty much sculpted from filler. anything from 1/4 inch average to 3/4 inch. usually there isnt really that much going on with the panel underneath. I was asked to fix the sill and door opening of an original AC ace a few months ago, the car looked original with good patina but the truth was, as I soon found out, that the dents and stuff was bad filler work aver an inch on top of the rear quarter at the door opening.... the poor thing was probably 3 times heavier than it should have been... You can only work to the original metal so the customer got his car back with a great repair that made the rest of the car look terrible... It seems to be "normal" and acceptable to bury classics in filler, it doesnt seem to affect the asking price, some folk with enough spare cash dont seem to care, its all down to the top coat, and trim, they are often oblivious to whats under the paint, unfortunately.
I come across that sort of work often.

Years ago I visited Bart Holland restorations in Holland, they had a Mercedes Gullwing in that had just been 'Restored' somewhere in the US They were in the process of taking the new paint job off the car and the amount of filler was horrendous, they had run a grinder into the filler on the nose cone area and it was at least three-quarters of an inch thick. The customer was paying for it to be done again. I have the photos somewhere. The car was worth around a million I believe at the time. I think it had history. No excuse for it not to be done right.

David
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  #35  
Old 09-10-2012, 07:59 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keith View Post
I like to use a file, I can't get the hang of sandpaper. I also like to use a bullseye pick.

As I have read this thread it appears many of us have our own thoughts and practices of to file or not to file. I like to read and see pictures of the end result and then I can make up my mind which way I want to proceed .

Why do these threads turn into a debate? I lose interest in them pretty quick when the debating starts.

Doing insurance work, working in a dealership, working in a restoration shop and metalshaping all have the same goal, do a quality job get it out the door and hopefully someone made some money. How you get it out the door has many options.

I'm off the soapbox now.
Keith, the main thing I have been saying is plenty of people are doing 'metalshaping' but not even trying to get a good finish.

I agree why are people confrontational in threads that are simply a discussion?.



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  #36  
Old 09-10-2012, 08:04 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by route56wingnut View Post
Working with a Vixen file is like most opperations , You have to use your head .It is no different than using the incorrect sander for achieving the same results . If you start with an ill fitting weld seam you are setting yourself up for failure . The file is a great tool for only picking up the raised areas . That being said ,if you have an area that you have made no reasonable attempt to straightening out , then what will the file do except thin out metal that should not be .


Working with Cass Nawroki I was shown many ways to achieve ammasing results for surface prep . He mostly used the files for aluminum , but used them when needed for steel . His go to tool is a 8" grinder that he claims to be able to perform (Heart Surgery) with .Who am I to question . After being used to using a 3" and 4 " angle grinders ,I thought my God I will tear this thing to shreads . Wrong , It works similar to the concept of the Vixen where it only sees high spots , and just glides over the smooth surfaces . As you first try this you will see a shower of sparks coming off the surface and assume you are ruining the panel , only to find out you are only cutting the pride of the weld .


This is where you have to use your head and stop and check your surface to see if you have undue highs and lows . Now on flat areas a straight line sander or Vixen used with Dycem to read the panel will 'work very good for this but on reverses and high crowns I would say the 8" grinder works great . Again there is a learning curve with any tool or method and if you want to ruin a panel quickly just take that grinder and burn an edge .USE YOUR HEAD

My Process is to planish the area checking with my hands, file to find further high and low spots which are then planished out, then (sometimes) use an eight inch grinder to take out any final imperfections.

David
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  #37  
Old 09-10-2012, 08:18 AM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Gardiner View Post
...what I am saying is why bother at all to shape metal if you are going to leave it half done? ..
Ahhhhh...Because even a bad job of shaping is better than a bunch of pieces of soup cans pop riveted in place or worse. David, don't misunderstand me. I hope to live long enough to be qualified to carry your toolbox.

Realistically however, the majority of our members have very rudimentary skills. Anything they can learn that improves the quality of their work is worth the bother imo. I look back at some of my earlier work and cringe but the last thing we need to do is discourage new folks in their attempt to improve. It's one thing to show successes and beautiful work. It's another to show our mistakes but that is where learning happens not only for us but for the folks that read our stuff.

I love it when folks show their work and honestly ask for opinions. That's where learning happens. The purpose of this forum is to share knowledge and grow our skills not just have debates. Everyone has to start somewhere. We're not born full grown metal shapers although it is very clear to me that some people have natural gifts. Some can sing, speak, draw, etc. And some can look at a piece of metal and see what needs to happen to get it to look like they want it to. Others can rub their hands over a panel and feel the highs and lows that are completely invisible to mere mortals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Gardiner View Post
...I see lots of stuff where the parts are welded in one photo and painted in the next, unfortunately people watch TV programs where this is all that is shown and people think its the way it should be done. (using lots of filler)
Yep, magic happens during commercials! If I buy that cream that takes removes body hair, I too can have my panels painted by the time the order is processed....
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  #38  
Old 09-10-2012, 09:17 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Kerry you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick, I have taught enough people to know this is not the easiest thing to learn, I am talking about the attitude that some seem to have that it does not need to be planished out and that the job is finished once the welding is done. Bike tanks that have the bottom welded in before the rest of the tank has been fully welded for example. Not the person who puts his or her all into it and does not get perfect results. If I were that critical I dont think I would have lasted long as a lecturer. I have an opinion that the best way to find the high and low spots is with a body file that is why they were invented, others may not agree with this but I am entitled to my opinion. I am not forcing it on anyone just stating it.

David
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  #39  
Old 09-10-2012, 09:27 AM
redoxide redoxide is offline
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I think all of the folks in here do the best they can, I also believe that all of the folks in here aspire to improve there skills. Seeing beautifully shapes panels give me the incentive to try harder and improve my skills, seeing magnificent metal finished products makes me more determined to improve further and shoot for the goal of perfect metal work.. Im still miles away from that goal but I see improvements.... spattered with massive disapointment, but seeing the cracking work performed here and how most folk improve is often enough to gee me up and do as well as I can.
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  #40  
Old 09-10-2012, 09:33 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Ian, if you read my original post I did not actually refer to this forum at all. However to make it clear again it is better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all. I applaud people who try to do this for a hobby and some get fantastic results, most do amazingly well.

David
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