All MetalShaping

Go Back   All MetalShaping > General Metal Shaping Discussion > Basic questions and answers
  Today's Posts Posts for Last 7 Days Posts for Last 14 Days  

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-08-2012, 03:15 PM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
MetalShaper of the Month
May 2009, Jan 2012, Dec 2014
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: England
Posts: 5,325
Default Why do we file panels, why are there bodyfiles?.

I recently had a discussion on here about whether it is a good idea to file panels.

Why is it needed? what is the reason for filing? will it make the metal thin?.

The reason for filing the welded joint between two sections of panel is to smooth out the joint and blend the sections into one smooth part. I really believe that without filing the joints and other areas that need further smoothing once formed the panel is only half done.

In my opinion if a job is worth doing its worth doing well. I have seen a lot of work on a number of sites where some nice shaping has been done but its only half finished, deep wheel lines, heavy marks from hammering and forming and welds ground down and left. I seldom see anyone file a panel. To me there is no point in making something in steel and leaving it so that it need a thick coat of filler to smooth it out. You may as well build a fibreglass panel.

I realise that skills have to be learned and that perfection is not easy to achive. (I am not sure I have ever made anything that was perfect) but if you don't even try to make smooth panels you will never improve.

Dressing panels is as important a part of the process as wheeling a section or welding.



Some people say that using sand paper will show the high and low spots but body files were developed for good reason. The file will show you where areas of the panel are high or low. The human eye can see tiny imperfections in the surface of a panel - areas with less difference than the thickness of hair. The file is intended to remove a little metal so that tiny imperfections can be filed out.

The marks left by sandpaper become blended and uniform after a few strokes and will no longer show high and low spots. A file is directional so if the panel is filed from a second or third direction low spots will show up.

As for making the panel thin, well I just throw down the gauntlet to anyone to make a bowl say and see how long they have to file with a body file before they make the metal thin. You have to use common sense and planish low and high areas with a little fileing in between to show how you are progressing.

Without filing I could not hope to straighten and repair something like this healey wing ...





David

Feel free to comment add your thought and contradict what I have said, this is a forum where we are supposed to discuss things and learn from each others opinions. I may not agree with what you say but that is the point. I will not be offended. That is what these sites are for.
__________________
Metalshaping DVD. www.metalshapingzone.com
Metalshaping with hand tools on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGElSHzm0q8

All things are possible.

Last edited by David Gardiner; 09-08-2012 at 03:26 PM. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-08-2012, 03:58 PM
Marty Comstock's Avatar
Marty Comstock Marty Comstock is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: East Herkimer NY
Posts: 1,570
Default

It is about speed, and doing what you are getting paid for. I am paid to get it close, using best judgment and whatever filler is necessary.

I have filed and polished thin stainless steel windshield trim parts, and it is very time consuming.

Unless a person has been doing it for as many years as you have David, or are under tutelage of someone like yourself, most people will likely be too heavy handed with the file, in the same manner many folk grind a weld or adjacent area too thin. Its about skill, and thousands of hours of good practice.

My opinion? The body file is great on lead and to show high spots, but otherwise shouldn't be used by most. I can get as muuch information with a 27" block sander.

My .02

Marty
__________________
Results = (Effort X Determination2) + Time
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-08-2012, 06:00 PM
A Glause A Glause is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: St. Libory NE
Posts: 27
Default

I have to agree with David. Back in 1966 when I went to body and fender trade school, they brought in a junker for us to learn to repair dents. The instructer used a big pipe to make the dents all over the car. Then each of us picked a panel and plainished it out and filler it till it was straight, after and inspection by the instructer, a new dent was make and you started over again. Six or eight guys worked on one car. After a week of this there was holes in some places. But what a learning this was. I have fixed parts that were over work thourgh the years, but most of the thinning comes from a heavy grinder. Back when i was young I would've challenge some mud slingers on which is faster, I know which is best. Today we scim coat really bad panels, but that is mostly for speed. But we do have a hand made cobra in our shop that could be polish, but not by me, cars are ment to be painted and a little primer will save days of polishing. A few years ago I built a 34 Ford 5/W coupe out of aluminum. After it was done the owner decided he was going to have it clear coated. I helped him redress some of the welds and he spent part of a summer going over the body and fenders. And I'm sure there are some places on the body that are a little thin. But man does it look good. One learns with experience, even an old guy like me, "every day".
Thanks Andy
__________________
A Glause
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-08-2012, 07:55 PM
Kerry Pinkerton's Avatar
Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Near Huntsville, Alabama. Just south of the Tennessee line off I65
Posts: 8,321
Default

I pretty well agree with David AND Marty. The key phrase is 'shouldn't be used by most'. It takes a fair amount of skill to use a body file correctly and without some experience damage can exceed expectations. I've SEEN marty use a vixen file to do EXACTLY what David is describing. I've also seen quite a few people start with the file before they have the panel smooth and they cut way into the metal trying to make it smooth rather than dress the panel first.

One of the rear fenders on my roadster (The one I'm going to remake) has some thin spots from excess filing. I don't think I would make that same mistakes today but I've come a long way since that was done.

I also agree with David that we will never get better unless we constantly strive to achieve the best possible result... That doesn't mean that the dealership where Marty spends his days is going to allow him to metal finish a repair on a 2110 Chevy.
__________________
Kerry Pinkerton
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-08-2012, 09:54 PM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is online now
MetalShaper of the Month October 2012
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Glen Cove, Long Island
Posts: 1,675
Default

My eyes aren’t the greatest any more so any panel I have enough doubt about to file I put the lightest dusting of Krylon primer on so when I file it gives me an easy to see contrast. The krylon is so thin you can see the metal thru it and it dries in moments, the filing is so light it barely takes any metal off… mostly just the Krylon I sprayed on. I only file to perfection on parts to be chromed. None of my body shop customers want to pay for that high of a degree of perfection, they are thrilled if I give them something they can spray high build primer on and then block out. ~ John Buchtenkirch
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-09-2012, 02:51 AM
metal manny metal manny is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 509
Default

Fascinating topic.

I gather the file is to be used lightly to find lows and highs which need to be further worked until within a micron or so of perfectly smooth, whereupon a final filing will correct these imperfections without excessive metal thinning?

I guess (from Marty's point) that's well and fine for a precious classic, but totally uneconomical for a repair on a Toyota Camry in daily use.
__________________
Manny

Remember that the best of men, are only men at best.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-09-2012, 03:36 AM
Barry Barry is offline
MetalShaper of the Month
May 2012
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Stellenbosch, South Africa
Posts: 455
Default

Good body files are hard to find where I am. I have tried filing as part of metalfinishing, but prefer blue dye and a longboard to show my progress - the blue lows show up my on dolly hammer marks nicely too.
My understanding is that the filing is simply to show highs and not remove material in any significant way.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-09-2012, 03:50 AM
ferguson ferguson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: N. Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 123
Default

i find it slightly strange that there is the perception that using a file slows the job down hugely.most of my work involves patching/repairing classic cars and have to be a jack of all trades-that is i do the body filling/spraying once i have done the repairs.a couple of minutes with a vixen file on say a wing can save me hours of prepwork for spraying.it shows up high/low spots that i certainly can't see with it being sanded-but sure show up when it comes to blocking it out.i find it easier and quicker to planish them out rather than use filler,layers of high build primer etc..also have to agree with david on thinning the metal.you have got to be really determined to thin steel with a vixen file-even if used badly-but can thin a panel effortlessly with a grinder/sanding disc,in seconds!
i probably don't use them as much as david does but can't imagine working without them.
__________________
Ferguson
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-09-2012, 05:16 AM
Peter Tommasini Peter Tommasini is offline
MetalShaper of the Month May 2013, Dec 2013
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Melbourne,Victoria, Australia
Posts: 7,750
Default

I also agree with David I have been metalfinishing repairs and newly made panels (if they need to)for many years ,and I never had the problem of the metal being too thin when the repair is done, it's a metter of practice with hammer and dolly and finishing off with the flipper(slapper) before using the file
Peter
__________________
P.Tommasini

Metalshaping tools and dvds
www.handbuilt.net.au

Metalshaping clip on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEAh91hodPg

Making Monaro Quarter panel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIpOhz0uGRM

Last edited by Peter Tommasini; 09-09-2012 at 05:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-09-2012, 05:24 AM
Resto Rod Race Resto Rod Race is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 219
Default body files

Well said David, i too am a file person. I had a simislar conversation with a fellow restorer a few weeks back, i like to file all my stuff and he does it occasionally. I chose to learn how to file a panel to perfection, and yes this took many many hours of filing, on many jobs to do so. Not every thing is perfectly filed, depending on the circumstances of course (time/ money/etc) but at least i have that option. When i was an apprentice, i saw a tradsman filing a panel in a crash repair shop, and asked why bother filing it, his response was "Because i can, you dont because you dont know how!" ......so i learnt.
__________________
Adam.

Assumption is the Mother of all Sutff ups.

Resto Rod Race.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:57 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.