All MetalShaping

Go Back   All MetalShaping > Metal Shaping Stuff For Sale > Business Classifieds
  Today's Posts Posts for Last 7 Days Posts for Last 14 Days  

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-20-2014, 11:33 AM
ed l ed l is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Palm Coast, Florida
Posts: 114
Default english wheel build question

im about to start building an english wheel im trying to keep it simple im designing it after baileighs big e-wheel i want to take 2 1/2" plates and put 4" spacers between them i already ordered all my wheels and adjusters from hoosier profiles can anyone fore see any problems i may run in to any info would be appreciated thanks ed
__________________
Ed Lerner
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-20-2014, 04:34 PM
Frank.de.Kleuver's Avatar
Frank.de.Kleuver Frank.de.Kleuver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Eindhoven (The Netherlands)
Posts: 771
Default

Hi Ed,

I'm considering this option also. What quality steel are you planning to use? Just mild or stronger. And what reach are you going for?

Greetings,

Frank
__________________
Frank de Kleuver
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-20-2014, 10:11 PM
ed l ed l is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Palm Coast, Florida
Posts: 114
Default

hey frank i m planing on using 1/2" mild steel with a 30"throat depth i was going to use 4x4 tubing but decided on using the baileighs design its much simpler and i dont think the double 1/2" plate will flex much although its going to be pretty heavy any advice anyone can offer would be appreciated thanks ed
__________________
Ed Lerner
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-21-2014, 10:31 AM
Richard K's Avatar
Richard K Richard K is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN or On the Road
Posts: 1,131
Default

With 2 plates bolted together with spacers I would say you will have flex from side to side and a corresponding twist. The pressure on the wheels impart a strong force sideways. If the top roller can go sideways the pressure is relieved. you should weld in or bolt in plates rather than spacers.

To demonstrate the principle, take a shoebox with no lid and see how easily it twists. Then tape on the lid and try again.

This is the same reason hot rod builders box the old channel shaped frames.
__________________
Richard K
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-22-2014, 11:27 AM
hig hig is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Central, NY
Posts: 13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard K View Post
With 2 plates bolted together with spacers I would say you will have flex from side to side and a corresponding twist. The pressure on the wheels impart a strong force sideways. If the top roller can go sideways the pressure is relieved. you should weld in or bolt in plates rather than spacers.

To demonstrate the principle, take a shoebox with no lid and see how easily it twists. Then tape on the lid and try again.

This is the same reason hot rod builders box the old channel shaped frames.
I've had the same question, these are some photos I came across on Facebook (sorry I can't give credit to who's they are)





So this design would not be as strong as a machine made out of rectangular tubing or plate with a "top & Bottom" welding in?

Wouldn't the spacers add strength by tying the 2 sides together?

Thanks, Steve
__________________
Steve
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-22-2014, 12:35 PM
Richard K's Avatar
Richard K Richard K is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN or On the Road
Posts: 1,131
Default

The spacers add "beam strength" by keeping the plates oriented vertically. However the bolts and spacers do little to stop twist because the plates can still distort between the spacers. With a tube or welded in fillers there is no "between" for flex to occur.

Perfom a small test for yourself.

1. Get 2 1/4 thick plates 6" x24". Drill and bolt together with some 2" spacers, you chose how many. Anchor one end in a vise or clamp to ridged spot. (heavy bench, truck bed or whatever.) Then stick a strong bar through the unsupported end and test for twist.

2. Now try the same test with a 2" x4" x 1/4 rectangular tube. Weld a chunk of pipe on on end for the twist test and see what the results are.

Note: the 2x4 x 1/4 tube and the pair of 1/4 x 6" plates have the same amount of steel so it should be a fair test.

In the RMD or Baliegh design the large diameter of the spacers adds support to the plates more so than a smaller diameter would. With the huge amount of plate it likely works OK. However with a smaller side plate and welded spacer plates the whole job could be accomplished with a lot less weight of material. At a couple bucks a pound, a one hundred pound saving is a big deal (plate steel pluss the 3 or 4" round bar for spacers. There may be 50 pounds of spacers and fasteners?

Kerry Pinkerton's Imperial wheel frames are a good example of efficient use of materials. And those wheels are very stiff and relatively light for their size (throat depth).

The bolted frames and the spacers plus the holes sawed everywhere do have a strong "COOL" design factor. That may be a consideration.
__________________
Richard K

Last edited by Richard K; 09-22-2014 at 12:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-22-2014, 07:48 PM
hig hig is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Central, NY
Posts: 13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard K View Post
The spacers add "beam strength" by keeping the plates oriented vertically. However the bolts and spacers do little to stop twist because the plates can still distort between the spacers. With a tube or welded in fillers there is no "between" for flex to occur.

Perfom a small test for yourself.

1. Get 2 1/4 thick plates 6" x24". Drill and bolt together with some 2" spacers, you chose how many. Anchor one end in a vise or clamp to ridged spot. (heavy bench, truck bed or whatever.) Then stick a strong bar through the unsupported end and test for twist.

2. Now try the same test with a 2" x4" x 1/4 rectangular tube. Weld a chunk of pipe on on end for the twist test and see what the results are.

Note: the 2x4 x 1/4 tube and the pair of 1/4 x 6" plates have the same amount of steel so it should be a fair test.

In the RMD or Baliegh design the large diameter of the spacers adds support to the plates more so than a smaller diameter would. With the huge amount of plate it likely works OK. However with a smaller side plate and welded spacer plates the whole job could be accomplished with a lot less weight of material. At a couple bucks a pound, a one hundred pound saving is a big deal (plate steel pluss the 3 or 4" round bar for spacers. There may be 50 pounds of spacers and fasteners?

Kerry Pinkerton's Imperial wheel frames are a good example of efficient use of materials. And those wheels are very stiff and relatively light for their size (throat depth).

The bolted frames and the spacers plus the holes sawed everywhere do have a strong "COOL" design factor. That may be a consideration.
Thank you for expanding further, it was very helpful.

Steve
__________________
Steve
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-22-2014, 08:48 PM
ed l ed l is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Palm Coast, Florida
Posts: 114
Default

i would like to thank everyone for their replies as far as the rmd or baileigh e-wheel design it looked like a fairly simple design and got great reviews their machine uses 2 5/8" plates and i was going to use 2 1/2" plates i didnt think it would be too stiff and i was going to use the same size spacers i just wanted to do it a little smaller than theirs as far as side to side flex or movement from being bolted together i could always resort to welding it just looked like it was a nice design as far as design its not set in stone thanks ed
__________________
Ed Lerner
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:23 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.