All MetalShaping

Go Back   All MetalShaping > General Metal Shaping Discussion > Basic questions and answers
  Today's Posts Posts for Last 7 Days Posts for Last 14 Days  

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-01-2017, 05:50 PM
galooph galooph is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Alsager, United Kingdom
Posts: 902
Default Rear arch replacement - best approach?

Hi,

I'm getting towards being able to make a start on my old 2nd gen Hilux Surf (known as a 4Runner in the US) project. For a 25 year old vehicle, it's remarkably rust free, with the exception of the rear arches.

I've sourced an arch repair panel for each side from Japan (via Canada!), but I was wondering what the best way to approach it would be. Access to hold a dolly behind the replacement arch section for planishing is limited. Would cutting off the outer quarter panel where I've indicated, so that I can do the welding at the bench, be sensible, or is it just making more work for myself?



Thanks!
__________________
Dan Smith
https://galooph.com/
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-01-2017, 08:23 PM
cliffrod cliffrod is offline
MetalShaper of the Month January 2020, March 2022
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Posts: 2,844
Default

General trivia about 4Runner/Hilux Surf 2nd generation bodies like these that you may or may not know-

The either zero or significant rust found in this area of the bodies is apparently more related to issues with factory corrosion-proofing or lack thereof than to normal use & resulting rust. We have three of these 2nd generation 4Runners here and have looked at many, many, many more here in the southeastern USA where the vehicles are not exposed to significant road salt and have fewer rust problems. It doesn't seem to matter what year model- it occurs on early and late ones. As a general rule, they either have no rust or the forward portion of the rear wheel arch is very heavily rusted out, even completely gone between the door and wheel well. The rust is often surprisingly equal if not identical on each side of the vehicle. The rest of the body will generally be essentially rust free.

The rust is usually from the inside with the factory paint intact. It may be a drainage issue causing this problem but this is an area where nothing should be getting wet inside the panels. The rust travels up the doorpost between door and side window quickly, even after there are big new drainage/rust holes in the bottom of the panel. Not certain what is the reason, but it is a fact with these bodies.

Cutting away to solid metal is obviously normal procedure. In this case, you may want to pay even more attention to any color changes that may indicate present or missing corrosion proofing from factory. The lower cut line on rocker panel you show in the pic might be better placed if moved forward to make sure you're into good metal. I have not done this repair yet but have a spare 1990 4Runner 22re 5 speed here that needs the same exact repair when and if I get time to do it.....

Hope this helps. Good luck with your project. I will be interested in how it turns out..
__________________
AC Button II
http://CarolinaSculptureStudio.com
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzSYaYdis55gE-vqifzjA6A Carolina Sculpture Studio Channel
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-01-2017, 09:40 PM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is offline
MetalShaper of the Month October 2012
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Glen Cove, Long Island
Posts: 1,675
Default

Been there, done that darn near a thousand times, maybe more. I wouldn’t even get involved with the job unless you also had a outer wheelhouse and you might as well get a trunk floor skirt if it’s still available. The trunk floor skirt can usually be patched easily but patching the outer wheelhouse can be very time consuming making it fit correctly to the quarter. ~ John Buchtenkirch
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-02-2017, 02:28 AM
galooph galooph is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Alsager, United Kingdom
Posts: 902
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffrod View Post
As a general rule, they either have no rust or the forward portion of the rear wheel arch is very heavily rusted out, even completely gone between the door and wheel well. The rust is often surprisingly equal if not identical on each side of the vehicle. The rest of the body will generally be essentially rust free.
That fits with my observations here in the UK too. I know several other owners and their vehicles have rusted in identical places. The outer rocker panels aren't too bad, but the inner rocker panel on the side shown is completely rusted out for about 6 inches forward of the wheel well.

This will be a bit of a labour of love, as it was my first ever truck. That, and I've got a 1UZFE V8 to drop into it

Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffrod View Post
Hope this helps. Good luck with your project. I will be interested in how it turns out..
Thanks!
__________________
Dan Smith
https://galooph.com/
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-02-2017, 12:16 PM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
MetalShaper of the Month October '14 , April '16, July 2020, Jan 2023
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western Sierra Nevadas, Badger Hill, CA
Posts: 4,385
Default

Having done a few of these closed panel jobs leads me to avoid welding the outer seams.

Instead, I joggle / step / offset the existing panel edge about 3/4" in - and down. I then make up the patch and fit it flush in place and cleco it. I use my shop-made 7inch vise-grip dimple-maker to prep for my closed-end flush pop-rivets. I tin the two mating faces and clean properly and install rivets. At the panel ends I bung in two brazed spots to tie them tightly, and then solder up the works real nice.

(ps, does not work so great on aluminum jobs....)
__________________
Kent

http://www.tinmantech.com

"All it takes is a little practical experience to blow the he!! out of a perfectly good theory." --- Lloyd Rosenquist, charter member AWS, 1919.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-02-2017, 02:59 PM
Maxakarudy Maxakarudy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Origin of the wheel, UK
Posts: 630
Default

Hi Dan,

How big is the repair panel, can you show it on the car?
__________________
Cheers
Martin

No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-02-2017, 04:03 PM
galooph galooph is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Alsager, United Kingdom
Posts: 902
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crystallographic View Post
Instead, I joggle / step / offset the existing panel edge about 3/4" in - and down. I then make up the patch and fit it flush in place and cleco it. I use my shop-made 7inch vise-grip dimple-maker to prep for my closed-end flush pop-rivets. I tin the two mating faces and clean properly and install rivets. At the panel ends I bung in two brazed spots to tie them tightly, and then solder up the works real nice.
That's tempting, but would fall foul of the annual inspection here in the UK, unfortunately. Panel repairs have to be fully seam welded, or spot welded if that's how the manufacturer did it originally. That's not to say that people don't do it, as it's hard for the tester to spot!
__________________
Dan Smith
https://galooph.com/
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-02-2017, 04:18 PM
galooph galooph is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Alsager, United Kingdom
Posts: 902
Default

Hi Martin,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxakarudy View Post
How big is the repair panel, can you show it on the car?
I'll take a photo next time I'm down at the workshop, but in the meantime, here's a photo showing the repair sections from the supplier's site.



Thanks!
__________________
Dan Smith
https://galooph.com/
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-02-2017, 11:43 PM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
MetalShaper of the Month October '14 , April '16, July 2020, Jan 2023
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western Sierra Nevadas, Badger Hill, CA
Posts: 4,385
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by galooph View Post
That's tempting, but would fall foul of the annual inspection here in the UK, unfortunately. Panel repairs have to be fully seam welded, or spot welded if that's how the manufacturer did it originally. That's not to say that people don't do it, as it's hard for the tester to spot!
You can weld the flange ends together and they show nicely for inspections. The work under the paint will not show. With damage, this type of repair can take some serious strain and still not reveal the method. If ripped apart by collision, then you will see some evidence.
In aviation, spot welds have been shown not to be as strong as rivets..... so in some repairs the spot welds are replaced by rivets - but these joints are without the additional bond strength of a 3/4 inch wide lapped solder seam......
__________________
Kent

http://www.tinmantech.com

"All it takes is a little practical experience to blow the he!! out of a perfectly good theory." --- Lloyd Rosenquist, charter member AWS, 1919.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-03-2017, 06:57 AM
neilb's Avatar
neilb neilb is offline
MetalShaper of the Month March 2019
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Melbourne OZ
Posts: 672
Default

I've always cut the old arch out repaired the inner, then welded the new outer on with a bead of urethane along the last edge before the lip, then spot weld through the sealer while its wet. had lots of practice coming from sheffield uk lol
__________________
Neil
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:24 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.