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  #11  
Old 06-15-2014, 11:29 PM
Barry Barry is offline
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Originally Posted by Robert the builder View Post
....I have been slightly put off by comments like machines are a way of converting good metal sheet to scrap more easily and quickly than beating it to death by hand...
That doesn't make them less true though Robert

Seriously though, sure using a wheel and beadroller is quieter but inevitably there will be situations where hand work is the only option.
It also helps to master it in gaining an understanding of how the metal reacts/moves. When you get in trouble on a 'wheel it can be hard to figure out (and control exactly where you need to work). I still do most of my final metal finishing by hand - even that takes practice in developing a feel for how hard (or not) to make your hits.

Nothing wrong with the machines, but I'd discourage a total newbie from starting there is all. I do appreciate the noise concerns though.

Very interesting project BTW - keen to see how you get on.
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  #12  
Old 06-16-2014, 01:24 AM
Robert the builder Robert the builder is offline
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That doesn't make them less true though Robert

Seriously though, sure using a wheel and beadroller is quieter but inevitably there will be situations where hand work is the only option.
I realise that Barry, but I feel a combined approach would help productivity and the smoother flow of metal.

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It also helps to master it in gaining an understanding of how the metal reacts/moves. When you get in trouble on a 'wheel it can be hard to figure out (and control exactly where you need to work). I still do most of my final metal finishing by hand - even that takes practice in developing a feel for how hard (or not) to make your hits.
I will practice each part in scrap, in miniature before I embark on a full size piece, That was what I did with the little Land Rover wings, I made a quarter size wing first with hand tools before I started on the real thing.

I have already made the scuttle in quarter size by hand and wire edged it. Full sized that will be about 60 inches long and about 22 inches wide with an offset flange recess for the bonnet (hood).

For the flare at the back of the panel I described a line about one third from the back and varied the number of blows and their intensity from the edge of the sheet, diminishing as I neared the line. There is one area which lacks a little shape, I could have got it perfect I think but I wanted to get on with the little Land Rover, I felt that if I had been using an English wheel I could have kept the shape more even, with fewer dinge marks to planish out.

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Originally Posted by Barry View Post
Nothing wrong with the machines, but I'd discourage a total newbie from starting there is all. I do appreciate the noise concerns though.

Very interesting project BTW - keen to see how you get on.
I think one of the factors here is that most of the really experienced metalworkers have accumulated and evolved a really good set of hand tools, which can take a lifetime, together with the practice and experience to use them. I will only be producing at the most, two or perhaps three modest car bodies, with a very basic kit. I fully expect the workmanship to improve as I progress, I don't have a lifetime to develop my sheet metalworking skills, I am almost 68. I have a cliff of a learning curve to climb, which is one reason why I am here.

I still have to tackle the welding aspect yet, I have decided to go the gas route, at least for now, mainly on cost grounds, I can't afford an AC TIG, period. On that front my biggest concern is finding a pair of goggles which at least reduce the sodium flare, so I can see the weld pool. Any pointers or advice on that front would be very much appreciated. No way can I afford £150 for a pair of goggles, I also need to be able to wear my close reading glasses to even see the joint.
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  #13  
Old 06-16-2014, 01:38 AM
Barry Barry is offline
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Although there is some debate (around the level of protection) about the ones in this thread;
http://allmetalshaping.com/showthread.php?t=9151 , they do seem a pretty viable option, especially if you aren't going to be welding all day long...

I tried one or two of the links with no replies (living in Africa has its downsides too, but we're not all scammers) - but I'm keen to get one to try.
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  #14  
Old 06-16-2014, 03:07 AM
Robert the builder Robert the builder is offline
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Originally Posted by Barry View Post
Although there is some debate (around the level of protection) about the ones in this thread;
http://allmetalshaping.com/showthread.php?t=9151 , they do seem a pretty viable option, especially if you aren't going to be welding all day long...

I tried one or two of the links with no replies (living in Africa has its downsides too, but we're not all scammers) - but I'm keen to get one to try.
Thank you very much Barry, that seems to be exactly what I need, I have contacted Weldspares of Warrington and await their reply.

I am very aware of the UV/IR issues, wearing my photographers hat, i have a keen interest in the invisible spectrum and have cameras converted for both IR and UV photography. From experience I know it takes very little to stop UV dead in it's tracks. I have to use special fluorite lenses to enable images to be recorded using reasonable shutter speeds because glass and plastic attenuation of UV is so severe.

I work with a special narrow spectrum (365Nm) high powered UV lamp I have made to photograph flowers, I very quickly know if I have had an accidental exposure to the UV because of the unique soreness in my eyes, a bit like after having an accidental TIG flash.

While I value my eyesight above all else (I was mortified when I started to need glasses to read at 60...), I do feel there is a little paranoia involved in some stuff I have read.
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  #15  
Old 06-16-2014, 07:39 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Robert I can recommend the visor whole heartedly. I have had mine for some months now and it is great. The clearest view of the weld even with flux that I have ever experienced. No more struggling with googles and glasses. I don't know about any doubt about the protection offered by the visor. The visor is EU kite marked so will meet all the stringent rules imposed by the EU. The only problem I had with mine is that James kept taking it 'cos he liked it so much. I bought him his own so probelm solved.
One good thing is that once you have the visor if the shield gets scratched you can just replace that. Nothing is going to last forever but these are cheap to replace and mines is OK after several months in my workshop.

David
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  #16  
Old 06-16-2014, 07:42 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry View Post
Although there is some debate (around the level of protection) about the ones in this thread;
http://allmetalshaping.com/showthread.php?t=9151 , they do seem a pretty viable option, especially if you aren't going to be welding all day long...

I tried one or two of the links with no replies (living in Africa has its downsides too, but we're not all scammers) - but I'm keen to get one to try.

Barry if you want me to get one for you and send it to you I would be happy to do so.

David
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  #17  
Old 06-16-2014, 07:59 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Robert, I did a 6C Alfa here a while ago. It had an 8C engine so quite a car. The bonnet is a single curve so the wheel is not the ideal machine for that but could be used to break the grain. To make the bonnet you really need access to a set of rolls or you can curve it over something like a plastic waste pipe. Just take you time and work the curve in gradually.

As for machines making scrap quicker this is not something I say but I think it is really directed towards power machines such as the Eckold and other production machines not a wheel or a bead roller (its called a swager here). I do think it is necessary to learn hand skills because no matter how many machines I have I still need hand skills.

David
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Last edited by David Gardiner; 06-16-2014 at 08:06 AM.
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  #18  
Old 06-16-2014, 08:01 AM
Robert the builder Robert the builder is offline
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Originally Posted by David Gardiner View Post
Robert I can recommend the visor whole heartedly. I have had mine for some months now and it is great. The clearest view of the weld even with flux that I have ever experienced. No more struggling with googles and glasses.

David
Thank you David, it seems Weldspares of Warrington are a wholesale company but apparently both my local welding supplies stores have accounts with them so they should be able to obtain for me.

This sort of sharing of info is what makes the internet so great in my opinion, makes up for all the wallies who try to spoil it. Thanks for the support guys.
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  #19  
Old 06-16-2014, 08:24 AM
Robert the builder Robert the builder is offline
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Originally Posted by David Gardiner View Post
Robert, I did a 6C Alfa here a littel while ago. It had an 8C engine so quite a car. The bonnet is a single curve so the wheel is not the ideal machine for that but could be used to break the grain. To make the bonnet you really need access to a set of rolls or you can curve it over something like a plastic waste pipe. Just take you time and work the curve in gradually.

David
Originally when I got the Berlinetta the bonnet and sides were missing. All this started because of that, I decided to go with the radius bonnet rather than the two flat sides and a ridge. So it gave me the scope to ditch the rather crummy glass-fibre scuttle in favour of an aluminium one with a redesigned windscreen.

I have access to a set of slip rolls but they are borderline for the length I need. I have designed a simple former on a very clean and shiny piece of 90mm circular hollow section. The former will work rather like simple folder but instead of folding a sharp edge it should create a smooth and gradual radius. I will post a pic when I have created it, hopefully later this week...

I have been trying to find an Alfa 6c to photograph, I have about 100 images I have gathered from the net but as I am sure you know, never of the angle I want!!! LOL There is said to be one in the Donnington collection but I have not had any reply from my enquiry to the curator.

If you have any pix of the Alfa I would greatly appreciate a look. I think it's a beautiful car, I can see why Paul Woodhouse modelled the Marlins on that style.
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  #20  
Old 06-16-2014, 08:28 AM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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Robert, I applaud your vision. That will be a neat car. Take and post LOTS of photos. LOTS! It will help you remember what you did and help others learn from your successes and mistakes. You noticed I posted my successes and failures on the roadster

Regarding tools, let me preach for a minute.

We get many new members who are searching for that "magic tool" that will allow them to create panels with no effort and no learning. Ain't no such thing! The metal only does what you make it do and that is... "metal flows in the path of least resistance when pressure is applied". That's it. The secret to metal shaping is knowing where to apply and manipulate that pressure (via hammer, wheel, rock, stump, whatever) to get the metal to go where you want it to go. You can't learn this without getting your hands dirty. When we say that machines will only accelerate your scrap rate, we're saying that you need to understand what the metal needs in order to go from where it IS to where you WANT IT TO BE. A machine only does what you tell it and if you don't know what needs to be done, it certainly won't either.

So, spend some time working with hand tools so you can get up close and personal with what stretching and shrinking HERE does to the panel. Even if that means you're panels aren't as 'finished' as you would ultimately like.

All that said, you're going to want to have a way to smooth your panels when you get to your car. Obviously, I'm inclined to use an Ewheel but Planishing Hammers or Power Hammers have their fans also (although your neighbors probably wouldn't be among them...)

btw, you can easily bend simple rolls with a soft upper wheel and true radius lower dies on an Ewheel.
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