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  #21  
Old 11-22-2018, 11:13 AM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
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Fine-tuning bits of Will's fine commentary on the Metal Camp:


Annealing temp of 5052 and 6061 is 650F - fine for black marker.
3003 is 750F and that 100F higher makes for harder results, when only annealing the 3003 using the black marker, and getting a "partial" anneal instead of a "full anneal."
(Personally, I use the color of the flame "ricochet" or bounce as my temp indication.)
By the way, 5052 is very hot sensitive, and the dark gray spots that result from over-heating usually always show signs of fatigue, before cracking during subsequent working.

Nomenclature has always been a source of confusion. After WW2 thousands of war-workers returned to "normal" jobs, taking with them rudimentary understanding of terms and procedures in other industries. This did not help established accepted terminology, and in fact brought about change/confusion that older craftsmen had issues with. However the numbers of returning workers far outnumbered the skilled oldtimers and the odd lingo persisted, even today.
One example: "hammer welding" - a misnomer used when a blacksmith is "forge welding" two pieces of metal together.

Further aberrations apply when a craftsman is "hot planishing" a gas weld on steel sheet - and that is now "hammer welding???" However, when that same hot planishing is done one inch away from the gas welded seam the term is not used. Misuse of terms makes for such awful confusion when trying to communicate what is going on.

2nd example (of many) "Silver soldering" and silver brazing" and "hard soldering" and "soft soldering" - American terms being mixed with UK terms. Silver-bearing solder with 2-3.5% silver melts at 435F, below the 850F cutoff for American solders. "Silver solder" in the UK is divided between "soft" - below 850F and "hard" - above 850F and is therefore a "brazing alloy" by American standards, above 850F.

I gave a student a Robert Mondavi uncorking tool when he asked for a "corking" tool during a recent workshop ...



Working this terminology out may help, and writing it down and getting it out in public may also help - but stuff just persists, and it takes younger generations being taught to displace the older folks holding on ... sigh, and that is just the way it is.


- end -
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Last edited by crystallographic; 11-22-2018 at 01:55 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-22-2018, 12:11 PM
sblack sblack is offline
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I have never heard of this annealing method using the color of the flame. Can you explain a bit? I always just burn soot off, assuming that it works for all alloys. I have never looked up the annealing temps of the different alloys. I never would have recognized that I could be not annealing fully or setting myself up for cracks. This is great info.

Never thought of tacking with the tig. I use the meco and flux when I weld aluminum. That is awesome. Saves washing all the flux off to make sure you don't dissolve your hammers and dollies when you are bashing the parts into alignment. Do you use a much higher than normal amperage and just stomp once on the pedal? 1 amp per 0.001"?

Thank you so much Will and Kent for the picture extravaganza and I don't think anyone would complain if you posted more.
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  #23  
Old 11-23-2018, 10:11 AM
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RockHillWill RockHillWill is online now
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My favorite times from both the past racing involvement and the current metal shaping events is meal times. It always affords a quiet close-up opportunity to discus current projects and make plans for the balance of the day. We missed no opportunities to share these times.

Kent and I started out each of the eight days at the Waffle House enjoying the many ways to consume eggs and grits.
KentClassSun 001.jpg

Our repeat business did not go un-noticed and we were handsomely rewarded .
KentClassSun 003.jpg

The more common lunch at the shearing table at the Redneck Ranch.
PeggyClass 008.jpg

The traditional last lunch meal has been a visit to the local Subway.
PeggyClass 043.jpg
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  #24  
Old 11-23-2018, 02:36 PM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sblack View Post
How did you weld the gas tank without blowing yourself to bits?

The diesel was so old that it had gone to light oil with fungus in it.
We drained it and let it set and then welded it with zero problems.
I have repair-welded a lot of old gasoline tanks with no problem. I have also built new replacement tanks for those "professionally exploded" by various shops.
P1010738c.jpg
This old Kenworth tank was 5052 .063.
I welded it up with 5356 filler.
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  #25  
Old 11-27-2018, 06:10 PM
sblack sblack is offline
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how does one prepare a gasoline tank for welding so as not to professionally explode it ?
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  #26  
Old 11-27-2018, 10:07 PM
BTromblay BTromblay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sblack View Post
how does one prepare a gasoline tank for welding so as not to professionally explode it ?
A retired USAF aircraft welder had taught me to wash the tank with dawn dish soap or simple green and water. Once flushed, the tank has to be welded with in 30min. He said, if you can smell gas fumes, continue to flush the tank. Most of the time, I will fill the tank full of water, then weld the crack or seam. It just makes me feel better

B
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  #27  
Old 11-28-2018, 09:53 AM
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RockHillWill RockHillWill is online now
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I'm going out on a limb here, but this is what I took from the displays and training at Kent's recent visit. Because of the silver appearance and content of the three alloys and their melting temperatures that he demonstrated, and the choice to use 850 degrees F. as the deciding factor, I am choosing to describe one of his alloys as ''Silver Soldering' and the other two as 'Silver Brazing'.

The first picture I incorrectly labeled in an earlier post as Silver Brazing as I did not witness this demonstration first hand. It is Kents filler rod #ABS-0063 and has a melting point 780 deg.F., and is non corrosive flux cored. It is primarily used to join most common aluminum alloys (with the exception of 5005 & 5052.) Photos on Kents website indicates that it can also be used for copper &/or brass. I consider this to be Silver Soldering.

MiscTankPics 017.jpg


The second picture is the only one I took of the demo on using Kent's ABS-0229 non corrosive flux cored filler rod. It has a melting point of 1160-1180 deg.F. In the photo, Kent is adding a simple cover patch to an aluminum air intake to better display the tinning technic that he prefers. Here he is using a piece of 3003H14, but his website indicates that this filler rod can be used for adding several alloys of fittings to aircraft tanks.

KentClassMon 027.jpg



This third set of pictures is showing Kent tinning and adding an exterior patch to a steel turbo inlet tube using his ABS-0064 flux coated filler rod. It's melting temperature is 1020 deg.F., and can be used for steel, stainless, copper, brass, silver, gold and German silver. This filler rod has a 55% silver content. As with the other filler rods mentioned, Kent strongly advises cleaning the surface with a stainless steel brush or sandpaper and welding with a 'soft' flame.

KentClassMon 022.jpg

KentClassMon 023.jpg

KentClassMon 026.jpg

I don't feel that I have a good grasp on what other materials might be used to attach with using these rods, and perhaps Kent himself can add to that current vision.
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  #28  
Old 11-28-2018, 01:23 PM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHillWill View Post
I'm going out on a limb here, but this is what I took from the displays and training at Kent's recent visit. Because of the silver appearance and content of the three alloys and their melting temperatures that he demonstrated, and the choice to use 850 degrees F. as the deciding factor, I am choosing to describe one of his alloys as ''Silver Soldering' and the other two as 'Silver Brazing'.


Will, the alloy is our Aero Braze for aluminum, melts at 1160 - but will do 6061... and 1100, 1050, 2024, 3003, 3005, 6153, 6061, 6063 ... but no 5000 because of the magnesium alloyed within.


The first picture I incorrectly labeled in an earlier post as Silver Brazing as I did not witness this demonstration first hand. It is Kents filler rod #ABS-0063 and has a melting point 780 deg.F., and is non corrosive flux cored. It is primarily used to join most common aluminum alloys (with the exception of 5005 & 5052.) Photos on Kents website indicates that it can also be used for copper &/or brass. I consider this to be Silver Soldering.
It is the braze, above, and I did fasten the 3003 overlay patch onto the 6061 turbo intake tube with it (below) - instead of fitting a flush patch, butt welding it, and then reaching in to dress and planish out the butt weld. Just another way to patch an engine part, under the hood.


Attachment 50191


The second picture is the only one I took of the demo on using Kent's ABS-0229 non corrosive flux cored filler rod. It has a melting point of 1160-1180 deg.F. In the photo, Kent is adding a simple cover patch to an aluminum air intake to better display the tinning technic that he prefers. Here he is using a piece of 3003H14, but his website indicates that this filler rod can be used for adding several alloys of fittings to aircraft tanks. Yes, see above.

Attachment 50192



This third set of pictures is showing Kent tinning and adding an exterior patch to a steel turbo inlet tube using his ABS-0064 flux coated filler rod. It's melting temperature is 1020 deg.F., and can be used for steel, stainless, copper, brass, silver, gold and German silver. This filler rod has a 55% silver content. As with the other filler rods mentioned, Kent strongly advises cleaning the surface with a stainless steel brush or sandpaper and welding with a 'soft' flame.
Yes, I used a stainless overlay patch for repairing this plated steel hydraulic tube that had a cable chafe through it. Yes, welding is an option but not for this because of "weld fire-scale" which would require sandblasting and repeated washing for return to use. My years of doing hydraulic repairs for the local, and very rural, earth movers has given me a proven success rate. The low temps and very high strength of this silver braze make it the ideal choice - since 1973, in fact.



I don't feel that I have a good grasp on what other materials might be used to attach with using these rods, and perhaps Kent himself can add to that current vision.

Thank you, Will. It was a big joy for me to be with your group for this workshop.
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"All it takes is a little practical experience to blow the he!! out of a perfectly good theory." --- Lloyd Rosenquist, charter member AWS, 1919.
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  #29  
Old 12-10-2018, 12:10 PM
sblack sblack is offline
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This weekend I tried recessing the electrode into the cup by around 20 thou and then tried to tack some 1/16" 6061. I put the machine to 70 amps and gave the pedal a quick stomp. All I managed to do was to burn away a bit of metal. There was no fusion. What amperage is used in this operation relative to metal thickness? Just a quick stomp? Bring it up slow? Any hints? I can see how this would save a lot of time once you get it dialed in.
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