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-   -   Modern-day Miura: seeking buck making information (https://allmetalshaping.com/showthread.php?t=18557)

heinke 11-26-2018 10:55 PM

Modern-day Miura: seeking buck making information
 
If you're not already familiar with my Miura project, the build diary is here: Modern-day Miura

For this project, I'm having a 3D model created for the body design and then having the model sliced into jig/buck stations. I will get the cutting instructions and then have the jig/buck stations water jet cut. I've already engaged professional help with the above but there's a set of answers/information I need to provide to the person doing the modeling work.

Let me state up front, I've done a fair amount of metal shaping but have yet to make a full blown buck. I'm hoping to learn from you all that have experience with buck making so I can avoid rookie mistakes :eek:

My initial questions are:
  1. What material (e.g. plywood, MDF, masonite, etc.) that can be water jet cut is best to use for making a buck?
  2. What is the best material thickness for buck stations?
  3. What is best spacing for buck stations?
  4. Should all buck stations be spaced the same or are there areas where buck stations should be closer/farther apart?
  5. What other considerations should I pass along for inclusion in the buck station design/definition?

I have a choice of either making the buck free standing or making it to sit on the chassis. A free standing buck sounds simpler to me but there might be advantages to using the chassis as a buck foundation. Is one of these approaches more advantageous? What are the considerations of going free standing or on chassis?

If freestanding, I've been thinking a multi-piece buck might work best. The Miura body is composed of a one piece flip-up front clip, a one piece flip-up rear clip, and the middle section. Making a separate buck for each of these sections seems logical to me. If done right the three could be joined together to form the whole car body buck. Has anyone made a buck like this? What are potential pitfalls with this approach?

Kerry Pinkerton 11-26-2018 11:11 PM

Joel, I can't answer any of your questions but applaud your decision to make a hard buck. I've wasted YEARS of work and rework because I did not take the time to make a hard buck which would have forced my panels to be symmetrical.


I love flexible shape patterns but without something to tell you HOW they fit to the next panel you can get out of symmetry in about half a heartbeat. Ask me how I know...:lol:


I'm at the point where I'm still not sure if I should continue on with work that I'm not happy with or bite the bullet, scan one side, have someone make it symmetrical, and get a buck made and start over. I'm not sure it wouldn't be faster even as far along as I appear to be.


Good luck. Your project is going to be awesome.

Marc Bourget 11-28-2018 10:45 AM

Isn't it RockHillWill that posted a series of hard bucks from European shops and/or museums? Check those threads?

Kerry Pinkerton 11-28-2018 11:42 AM

No, it's Bill Longyard that has posted all the photos from his travels while researching his books.

heinke 11-30-2018 04:54 PM

Still need buck building information
 
So I now have confirmation that using a buck aids the metal shaping process (thanks Kerry). What I don't have yet is input from those who've done this before. If that's you, please share your knowledge.

In addition to the questions in the initial thread post, I'd like advice on best tool for cutting buck stations. At first, I was thinking water jet because I'd heard that mentioned a couple of times. In poking around the last few days, I've also seen CNC Router mentioned. Does anyone have experience that would help to say which of these is the better tool/process?

Steve Hamilton 11-30-2018 07:46 PM

Hi Joel
Kerry is correct about Bill getting info in Europe, but Rockhill Will, did post a lot of info on CAD and water jet to make bucks. I saw the bucks and remember that they fit together very well.

The bucks were to be used for the Bugatti project that Jim Henry is building. Not sure of the best way to search for them.

I found this in the automotive projects
http://allmetalshaping.com/showthread.php?t=15200

Steve

RockHillWill 11-30-2018 08:28 PM

These might help.

http://www.allmetalshaping.com/showt...Bugatti&page=3

http://www.allmetalshaping.com/showt...Bugatti&page=3

http://www.allmetalshaping.com/showt...hlight=Bugatti

mr.c 12-01-2018 02:01 PM

Creative Workshop in Dania,FL built a one off of a 50's vintage sportscar. Their own design but it had a Maserati flavor to it. Riveted period fuel tank and all.
I visited their shop a few times as they had traced me down for some information on a ASA 1000 GT that they were restoring. Stan Lobitz and I went one time and I took some photos of the car in process. They used a steel rod buck as seen in this photo. The finished car was beautiful and the buck is hanging from the rafters in their showroom. Photos of the car should still be on their website.
The photo has some of the skins on the floor behind the car. Yes, nice work can be done in a messy shop.
http://www.allmetalshaping.com/pictu...pictureid=3568

Chris_Hamilton 12-02-2018 11:53 AM

Wonder how well that TIG in the background works on a wooden floor? :lol: Did go to the website, seems like a first rate shop.

heinke 12-03-2018 05:37 PM

Station buck findings
 
I've read every thread I could find where a station buck was involved and made several direct inquiries to people. What's interesting is as new applicable technologies have become available (e.g. 3D modeling, CNC, etc.), what's involved in making a station buck has changed. So this dynamic cuts down even further the number of people with experience in making a station buck with the current technology.

I'm not in the business of manufacturing cars and so realistically this buck will get used one time. I know it's important to have it but I also don't want to over engineer it either. So this is my current direction for making a station buck.

Materials: 1/2" MDF or plywood stations spaced at 6 or 8 inches.

Station Cutting: CNC laser or router, still working out which will work best given the businesses providing these services in my local area

Buck type: free standing egg crate that will likely get transformed to be mounted directly on chassis later in project

My initial need for the buck is to get reliable surface information for the purpose of fabricating the inner body structures. These inner structures need to run very close under the body skin and be designed to pass through
very narrow places and around various obstructions. I think I can get the needed surface information via lofting/making contour gauges from a free standing buck.

The main issue I have with a free standing buck over the longer term is lack of garage floor space. In other words, I need available floor space for the chassis itself and additional cars worth of floorspace for the buck. The beauty of a chassis mounted buck is it only takes up the floorspace for a single car. But the downside of a chassis mounted buck is the conflict between chassis components and inner structures with the buck stations. You need to cut openings in the stations where the inner structures pass through. So I think I can free up enough floor space for the time it takes to build the inner structures. Then I trim down the stations to fit on the chassis and around inner structures so I can reclaim the floorspace by mounting buck stations on the chassis.

So this is my quandary and why I'm thinking of starting with a free standing buck and then seeing what makes the most sense from there forward.

Thoughts? Ideas? Feedback?

steve.murphy 12-03-2018 06:56 PM

You may have seen this already: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDgE47M73CE
About halfway they talk about how he builds the buck .

Kerry Pinkerton 12-03-2018 07:43 PM

We have a member here, Brent Click, that has a new state-of-the-art scanner and the cad software to go with it. He doesn't visit often but is active on Facebook. I bet there is a FB scanning group you could join and ask for who does what. I'll be glad to ask Brent if he has any contacts on the west coast.

That said, you're going to need to get access to a car and expect you'll need it to be somewhat local because you're going to want to participate in the stretching process so I expect you'll want to use someone local.

My limited experience is that waterjet does a nicer and faster job than CNC routers. One of the companies I did some sculpture work with up in Indianapolis was primarily a water jet company with the latest and greatest in technology. In fact, they were beta testing a new FloJet machine during the months I was there. Obviously, the machine cuts faster in thinner and softer material and in wood it just flies!

RockHillWill 12-03-2018 08:34 PM

Good evening Joel. Just some random thoughts:

A free standing egg crate buck can be made in sections that bolt together. When bolted together it can be used as a 'dummy' body for making body and chassis mounting brackets. If you look at the links that I made above you can note that the components are made in an interlocking manner. I used glue to hold them together because I wanted to be able to use them as a type of 'hammer form' as I am not yet a very skilled metal shaper. If you chose to bolt or screw them together, they could be disassembled for storage.

By using the water jet to cut, if can get the water jet guy to tell you when he has installed a new nozzle, you do not have to allow for clearances when drawing the parts. I used 5/8" thick Baltic Birch plywood and the fit together so well that often I had to tap them into place. Buck that I n=made over ten years ago have been used often for miscellaneous classes, etc.

heinke 12-05-2018 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerry Pinkerton (Post 151332)
My limited experience is that waterjet does a nicer and faster job than CNC routers. One of the companies I did some sculpture work with up in Indianapolis was primarily a water jet company with the latest and greatest in technology. In fact, they were beta testing a new FloJet machine during the months I was there. Obviously, the machine cuts faster in thinner and softer material and in wood it just flies!

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockHillWill (Post 151337)
Good evening Joel. Just some random thoughts:

A free standing egg crate buck can be made in sections that bolt together. When bolted together it can be used as a 'dummy' body for making body and chassis mounting brackets. If you look at the links that I made above you can note that the components are made in an interlocking manner. I used glue to hold them together because I wanted to be able to use them as a type of 'hammer form' as I am not yet a very skilled metal shaper. If you chose to bolt or screw them together, they could be disassembled for storage.

By using the water jet to cut, if can get the water jet guy to tell you when he has installed a new nozzle, you do not have to allow for clearances when drawing the parts. I used 5/8" thick Baltic Birch plywood and the fit together so well that often I had to tap them into place. Buck that I n=made over ten years ago have been used often for miscellaneous classes, etc.

Thanks for the information!

Does anyone have experience with the combination of MDF and CNC Laser? I'm thinking of using MDF because of cost (a whole car buck uses lots of sheets times high cost per sheet equals $BIG BUCKS$). One of the cons of MDF is it doesn't do well with water. But if MDF cuts well with laser then that might be a winning combination.

RockHillWill 12-05-2018 05:04 PM

It took me a while to come to the conclusion that if you are going to have a useable, lasting wooden egg crate buck, cheap will rule that out. I tried several kinds of plywood and none of it turned out to work well for me. It split, drew moisture, split when I hit on it with a hammer, etc. Water from the water jet leaves a mild surface stain that rubs right off, but water has no effect on it that I have seen to date, and some of my Model A bucks are 14 years old
When I was in racing, one of the Ford factory chassis builders and parts suppliers had a sign at his sales counter that said "speed costs money, how fast do you want to go". It was, and still Is, sound logic. You will get what you pay for.

As always, this is just an opinion from an old guy!

vroom 12-09-2018 11:41 AM

Buck
 
I built a square tube frame just smaller than the outside surface. (rigid and light weight) Then I covered it with 1/4" baltic birch plywood (very stable and stiff)
Then I cut away the inside surface of my 1/4" baltic birch buck stations and glued them to the plywood box using small wood blocks as reenforcement. Finally I coated the whole thing with polyurethane floor finish. This made a light and stable buck for most of my car.

Any highly sculpted area (around the headlights etc.) I ended up building up solid with MDF (1/2" and 1/4" layers) and filing and smoothing with pattern makers filler and coating with epoxy. I bolted this final piece to the steel frame. It only describes the first 8" of my car but weighs more than the rest of my buck.

Good luck. This is my third try and I'm not sure I should not have built it over the chassis.

heinke 12-09-2018 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockHillWill (Post 151393)
It took me a while to come to the conclusion that if you are going to have a useable, lasting wooden egg crate buck, cheap will rule that out. I tried several kinds of plywood and none of it turned out to work well for me. It split, drew moisture, split when I hit on it with a hammer, etc. Water from the water jet leaves a mild surface stain that rubs right off, but water has no effect on it that I have seen to date, and some of my Model A bucks are 14 years old
When I was in racing, one of the Ford factory chassis builders and parts suppliers had a sign at his sales counter that said "speed costs money, how fast do you want to go". It was, and still Is, sound logic. You will get what you pay for.

As always, this is just an opinion from an old guy!

Will: thanks for the straight shooting feedback. I do understand your point and appreciate you have a lot more experience with station bucks than I. So I am really listening and acting on your input. My dilemma is that I'm basically making a one time use buck. I'm trying to balance the investment in cost with the needed serviceability to get a good outcome. In other words, I'm not trying to be cheap but on the other hand don't want to over engineer it either.

heinke 12-09-2018 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vroom (Post 151462)
I built a square tube frame just smaller than the outside surface. (rigid and light weight) Then I covered it with 1/4" baltic birch plywood (very stable and stiff)
Then I cut away the inside surface of my 1/4" baltic birch buck stations and glued them to the plywood box using small wood blocks as reenforcement. Finally I coated the whole thing with polyurethane floor finish. This made a light and stable buck for most of my car.

Any highly sculpted area (around the headlights etc.) I ended up building up solid with MDF (1/2" and 1/4" layers) and filing and smoothing with pattern makers filler and coating with epoxy. I bolted this final piece to the steel frame. It only describes the first 8" of my car but weighs more than the rest of my buck.

Good luck. This is my third try and I'm not sure I should not have built it over the chassis.

Tim: thanks for sharing. Do you have pictures you can post? For the solid buck pieces, are you using it as a hammer form?

I ask because my plan right now is to have solid areas on my buck for front and rear grill openings, headlight openings, hood vents, and an indented body line that runs length of the hood. I plan to use these solid areas as hammer forms such that I get accurate, symmetrically placed openings.

I'm having these hammer form areas designed into the buck stations and will have CNC instructions such that they can be formed/shaped on a CNC router.

Why did you go with 1/4" buck stations? Are they stable enough to give you accurate feedback on panel fit?

vroom 12-11-2018 11:02 AM

I don't have many fotos. In the first one you can see where the 1/4" stations are doubled where the buck comes apart. The wire is for clipping partial panels to when forming The second foto shows the built up stations before I filled them with model makers filler and sanded them smooth for use as a hammer buck.

Well I you can see some fotos when I can figure out how to post them.

vroom 12-11-2018 01:57 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Here are the fotos:


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